So Zsniel if gods and demons are just born off our imagination then we should be able to reverse them out of existence right? Easier said than done huh?

The Devil was a bad example for me to use. let say for example a clan diety from ancent europe we have no way of knowing what that dietys name was or how it was worshiped so inesance that diety has seast to exist. The Gods that we do know such Wotan, Thor, Frigg, Fraya, Tyr,Sif etc. That remeberd and continue to be worshiped do still exist and many of these god are the personification of nature or aspects of life.

I do studie the Kabbalah from time to time my to co chiefs use it to explane almost everything. But I'm like There are forthy nine gates of compassion which connect with the mystery of the perfict man composed of male and female and with the mystery of faith. These are the Gates of understanding referable to BINAH 

I need Beer all Hail Ninkasi goddess of Beer 

[KubeSix]

Kube you are discounting the possibility that gods and demons are nothing more than creatures born off our imaginations/emotions/thoughts/dreams.

Actually I believe exactly that. It's just you have to admit, we can never know for sure if the tales have truth in them or not, which feeds us the ability to work with them. Cthulhu and the other Old Ones, by contrast, find their roots in a work of fiction written purely for entertainment. Faith, as misguided as it may be, holds great power, but holding acknowledged fiction as truth is just misguided in and of itself, is it not? (Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been years since I've felt anything like faith so my vision of it might be warped by now )

Ah, but you see? Video games and virtual reality. The emotions and the reactions we make are real.

It is us that give power to such things, be their origins fiction or truth. They were literally born off our fear. and thus they feed off it.

Books, stories. All tools of the i(magi)nation.

 

[KubeSix]

Hey you're right... It really does seem like the source, fiction or not, is viable as long as it's viewed with emotion... I just remembered something:

It was part of a list of truths society was not ready to admit. The first one was that faith = delusion in that the activity in the subject's brain when they prayed or talked about their religious beliefs (or any other sign of faith) was exactly the same as when they read a story or imagined something. The part of our brain that interprets religious beliefs is the same that deals with imagination and it interacts the same with both.

[Carden]

hmmm... thoughts are things, but not all things are thoughts.

i don't believe that the existence of the universe is based on belief. that would mean that the very fabric of reality is but a facade that stands to hide absolutely nothing.

[KubeSix]

Must there really be something behind the curtain?

Most people think that there must be something or else their lives would be pointless. Their solution is simple, they choose to believe in something greater than themselves.

There's this thing called personal realities. It says that we control reality, but our reality is still influenced by the one of others since they too have a personal reality. (To put it extremely simply, of course)

There's this thing I read (not sure if it's right or wrong) The article said that those things "outside" of reality that nobody witnesses in this reality do exist, only they exist solely for those who include it in their reality. Basically, my reality may be a simple illusion, a product of my imagination yet so deeply engraved in my subconscious that it is almost impossible to bend, while in yours, there may be something behind the curtain.

It's an interesting theory to say the least and I'm fairly sure I don't fully understand it, but this is what I could understand when I read about it.

[rave phillaphia]

Christianity didn't really steal the ideas they were originally a Jewish sect. But that is another conversation all together. I see where your belief system is coming from. You have the world view that humans are the ultimate force of abstract thought and change. That is why this conversation is getting sticky.

I mentioned the Kabbalistic view because they believe that your actions great or small can impact the connection with the spiritual world. Kind of a neoplatonic world view.

Were you looking at the Jewish Kabbalah or the new movement crap that Madonna is in? In the Kabbalah tradition or even just the basic Platonic view evil is always present and not created by human mind. The only thing we can do is achieve a stage higher than that. Or release from our physical bodies.

I truthfully believe demons and spirits are just forces of energy. I don't believe that we have control of them or can produce them. But we can manipulate them which is unwise because human knowledge of that aspect of existence is more than we can comphrend let alone someone actually having all knowing insight of it. I believe we can shape them yes but create them no. We shape our selves and what is around us but we don't create it because the material is already there.

[Carden]

i'm with her^

the proof that i have that it's not just a construct of the mind is that hallucinations are solely the product of information that the mind has. in order to hallucinate it, you must have either experienced it in some way or just thought it up. you cannot hallucinate what you do not know.

this is the difference between crazy and possessed. a possessed person mentions things and acts on things that they should not know.

Crazy people talk about and act on things that they shouldn't know/believe.


Your point?

[Carden]

Crazy people talk about and act on things that they shouldn't know/believe.


Your point?

things that they could not possibly have any knowledge of?

I mentioned the Kabbalistic view because they believe that your actions great or small can impact the connection with the spiritual world. Kind of a neoplatonic world view.

Were you looking at the Jewish Kabbalah or the new movement crap that Madonna is in? In the Kabbalah tradition or even just the basic Platonic view evil is always present and not created by human mind. The only thing we can do is achieve a stage higher than that. Or release from our physical bodies.

This is a list of the books I have.

The Sword and The Serpent The two fold Qabalistic Univers By Denning + Phillips
The Foundations of High Magick Volume 1 By Denning + Phillips
A Garden of Pomegranates Israel Regardie
The Middle Pillar Israel Regardie
The Holy Kabbalah A Study of the Secret Tradition in Israel by A. E. Waite

Actually I believe exactly that. It's just you have to admit, we can never know for sure if the tales have truth in them or not, which feeds us the ability to work with them. Cthulhu and the other Old Ones, by contrast, find their roots in a work of fiction written purely for entertainment. Faith, as misguided as it may be, holds great power, but holding acknowledged fiction as truth is just misguided in and of itself, is it not? (Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been years since I've felt anything like faith so my vision of it might be warped by now

I have not worked with the Lovecraft demons myself but I've never herd of anyone that do work with them or have tyred using them  say that they don't work or that they have been unsuccessful
z

[Carden]

you have faith that you will wake up in the morning and that the sun will rise and the earth will not go crashing into it, don't you?

I would like to continue this coversation in Demons Demonology and the Devil

[rave phillaphia]

all of those books are more modern 'pick and choose' beliefs. What I mean is that it is a new religious movement compaired to the Kabbalists that I am refering to. I am talking about methodology that predates Crowley and the Golden Dawn. I do have to admit some of their stuff is appealing but it's a different worldview when it comes to demons. 

So what I think is the next step is to ask: what methods and processes would you use in trying to get rid of this 'demon'? In order to fully assist you how does your order deal with demons and spiritual entities and how are they 'envoked' in your tradition? Meaning, if you 'envoke' them why do you do it and for what benefitial purpose? Also it would help to know if any of your members temper with other dark arts on an individual basis or at least without you (since it seems that it is not hurting you). This is what I mean by background information. You don't have to tell me the rituals just the overall fundamentals and purposes.