Monstrous
Apocalypse Soon => Religions, Cults & Sects => Topic started by: Lord Pisces luffy on June 26, 2006, 05:11:04 AM
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Jim Jones, the son of a Klansman, considered himself the reincarnation of both Jesus and Lenin. Jim had visions of an impending nuclear holocaust in which only the towns of Ukiah, California and Belo Horizonte, Brazil would survive. With that in mind, he relocated his first People's Temple to Ukiah to await the Armageddon.
Tired of waiting for the third world war, he moved his church to San Francisco where he received numerous humanitarian awards and became the Chairman of the city's Housing Authority. It was there that he first practiced a ritual called "White Nights" in which he prepared his followers for an act of revolutionary suicide to protest racism and fascism.
By 1977, as things started getting weirder, he was forced to move his church to Guyana, South America. There, in the isolation of the jungle, Jimmy created his dream community, Jonestown, and lost his mind. Jim's nirvana rapidly deteriorated into a nightmare which he knew of only one way to end.
On November 18, 1978, Congressman Leo Ryan from San Francisco went on a fact-finding mission investigating alleged human rights abuses at Jonestown. After only a day at the jungle compound, a member tried to stab Ryan. The injury was minor, but Ryan decided to leave with his party and 18 temple members who wanted to to return to the United States. Other members of the cult followed the group to the airstrip and opened fire, killing Ryan, three journalists, and one of the departing members. Eleven others were injured.
Hours later, the good reverend ordered his followers to drink from a tub of grape-flavored Fla-Vor-Aid laced with potassium cyanide and tranquilizers. All 900+ did. Children died first; babies were killed by poison squirted into their mouths with a syringe. Then the adults. Most were poisoned, some forcibly. Some were shot by security guards. As the ritual suicide progressed, it is unclear whether Jim put a bullet through his brain, or someone did it for him.
Within a few months of the mass deaths, other People's Temple members who had survived also committed suicide, with one mother slitting the throats of her three children. A year later, ex-People's Temple members Jeanne and Al Mills and their daughter Linda, who had been speaking out about their cult experience, were shot to death in their Berkeley, CA home. They had become among the most vocal People's Temple critics and feared for their safety.
When the bodies came back home, many could not be identified. Several cemeteries refused to take them until the Evergreen Cemetery in Oakland stepped forward in 1979 and accepted 409 bodies. The remaining victims had been cremated or buried in family cemeteries.
Jonestown itself has all but vanished, stripped by villagers and consumed by a fire in the early 1980s. Some believe that Jimmy was linked to the CIA and that the Jonestown massacre was in fact a mind control experiment. If it was, it was a total success. Years later, serial killer Henry Lee Lucas confessed that he did indeed personally delivered the cyanide to his "good friend, Jim Jones."
Every year, on November 18, a memorial is held at Evergreen Cemetery in Oakland, California, where 260 People's Temple children are buried. Due to the lack of dental records, the children were never able to be identified and thus were buried together there. On the 20th anniversary of the mass suicide, Liz Aguirre, president of Ultraseal International, hand-delivered a $5,000 check to finance a Vietnam memorial-type 20-foot wall to be erected in the cemetary. The black, granite panels of the memorial will have the names and ages of the victims inscribed as well as a dedication written by poet Maya Angelou.
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Good call, Luffy! I'm working on an article on Jones for the "Human Monsters" section of Monstropedia. Trouble I'm having is, he was so thoroughly bad its difficult to create a medium-sized article! :|
He was openly bi-sexual, and outlawed sex within his congregation - even for married couples - except with him. As with most of these fake messiah cult-leaders, sex and sexual domination lay at the root. Once, in the middle of a sermon, he asked that everyone who had had sex with him raise their hand. When one man didn't, he shouted out: "You weren't ashamed when you were squealing with delight as we were f****** the other night, were you, Harry?"
Some "reverend"!
Members were publicly flogged. He often poisoned "uppity" members to make it seem as if they were suffering divine punishment.
The ex-members who were assassinated afterwards, btw, were Jeannie and Al "MERTLE". She wrote a book all about Jones and his evil ways, mockingly titled "Six Years With God". It was written and published under her maiden name, Mills, hence the confusion.
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Isn,t this the biggest cult killing of all time?
edited to add: I might add something of Henry Lee Lucas to the serial killer topic because he is mentioned in this article.
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In modern times, certainly. The biggest mass-suicide would probably be the Jewish defenders at Masada (at least 1000). The biggest killing carried out against a cult would be the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars. Although it lasted 40 years, one incident alone stands out in the annals of infamy: the slughter in the town of Beziers. When asked by one of his men how they would be able to determine which were Christians and which were Cathars, the commander famously replied -"Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eis" ("Kill them all – the Lord will recognise His own", now paraphrased as kill em all - let god sort em out.) Around 20, 000 people died there including women and children. Elsewhere in the town many more thousands were mutilated. Prisoners were blinded, dragged behind horses, and used for target practice. The town was razed to the ground.
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Humankind is pretty much strange.........
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It was horrible - I'll never forget the photographs of the dead people....
~Morticia
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Remembering the Jonestown Massacre:
http://nwowatcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=2776.0
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It's interesting that Jones was a member of the "Disciples of Christ", and friends with top leaders of the John Birch Society. Edgar Cayce was also a member of the Disciples of Christ.
http://www.disciples.org/
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I remember, as a kid, watching it on the news and never could understand how such brainwashing can happen on such a large scale. Now I sit back and watch the Iraq War and see that it can be done on an even larger scale. World Wide even. (well almost)
What about the Holocoust ? I think that would constitute as the Largest Mass Murder Ever!
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I generally refer to the Nazis as a killing cult, oddly enough i have ancestors who were nazis.
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I generally refer to the Nazis as a killing cult, oddly enough i have ancestors who were nazis.
You may well have neighbours who are, too...
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/storm_dancer/bushnazi.jpg
What about the Holocoust ? I think that would constitute as the Largest Mass Murder Ever!
The Soviet Union under Stalin murdered at least 43,000,000 of its own citizens...
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Has anyone here heard the audio recording of the mass suicide that happened at Jonestown? It's actually rather disturbing, and that means a lot coming from me.
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It wasn't a mass suicide though, the gunmen and a few others forced all the children, women, and husbands to drink the poison in that order, then arranged them to look like they all died peacefully before knocking back the stuff themselves.
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Actually, most of them were religious whackos that did it of their own free will. The gunmen only went after the minority who weren't overjoyed to join their idiot messiah in death.
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Kreepy, can you upload a link to that audio?
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I'll see if I can find one. It's a very interesting thing. Extremely haunting.
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The interesting thing about Jones was that he actually successfully portrayed himself as a beacon of progress and tolerance during a period of great polarisation in the U.S. By convincing hundreds that he would build a socialist paradise in Belize where white and black people alike would live in perfect harmony and prosperity, Jones mananged to gain the support and sympathy of a lot of people that were struggling with perfectly valid social issues of the day.
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The interesting thing about Jones was that he actually successfully portrayed himself as a beacon of progress and tolerance during a period of great polarisation in the U.S. By convincing hundreds that he would build a socialist paradise in Belize where white and black people alike would live in perfect harmony and prosperity, Jones mananged to gain the support and sympathy of a lot of people that were struggling with perfectly valid social issues of the day.
He isn't the first and he definately won't be the last.
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He isn't the first and he definately won't be the last.
True. But Jones was unique in the sense that he was not afraid in embracing certain ideas that would have been termed socially radical by the standards of his day. The sad thing is that so many of them were actually utopian ideals that had great merit. It's a pity that Jones was also a lunatic who wanted to realize these ideals in the most perverse ways that were possible.
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He isn't the first and he definately won't be the last.
True. But Jones was unique in the sense that he was not afraid in embracing certain ideas that would have been termed socially radical by the standards of his day. The sad thing is that so many of them were actually utopian ideals that had great merit. It's a pity that Jones was also a lunatic who wanted to realize these ideals in the most perverse ways that were possible.
Ah...that is true as well. Utopian ideals always sound good, but some have hidden demons to them. The entire idea of a utopia came from a satirical book by Thomas More. The idea was bounced around before that but had no name. He gave it that name from a greek word meaning "no place." Meaning it doesn't exist and can never exist within this world.
As for Jones, I think he was a classic example of distopia, or when utopian ideals go bad.
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Ah...that is true as well. Utopian ideals always sound good, but some have hidden demons to them. The entire idea of a utopia came from a satirical book by Thomas More. The idea was bounced around before that but had no name. He gave it that name from a greek word meaning "no place." Meaning it doesn't exist and can never exist within this world.
As for Jones, I think he was a classic example of distopia, or when utopian ideals go bad.
That sounds about right. Utopia is impossible to achieve in a planet of limited resources. Moreover, on a fundamental level, we are but inherantly selfish beings who are quick to resort to violence whenever we feel that our aspirations are being threatened. It looks like distopia is the destination that every high minded but ultimately impractical ideal is fated to take.
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Ah...that is true as well. Utopian ideals always sound good, but some have hidden demons to them. The entire idea of a utopia came from a satirical book by Thomas More. The idea was bounced around before that but had no name. He gave it that name from a greek word meaning "no place." Meaning it doesn't exist and can never exist within this world.
As for Jones, I think he was a classic example of distopia, or when utopian ideals go bad.
That sounds about right. Utopia is impossible to achieve in a planet of limited resources. Moreover, on a fundamental level, we are but inherantly selfish beings who are quick to resort to violence whenever we feel that our aspirations are being threatened. It looks like distopia is the destination that every high minded but ultimately impractical ideal is fated to take.
Yes, most philosophical theories are highly flawed and dangerous to put into play. Utopianism isn't the only one. Most of them start noble but then are distorted by miscommunications, misunderstandings, or ignorance. Some of theses philosophical theories can lead to catastrophic events and some can just lead to the corruption of moral values. The rest sorta fall in between. I think this one falls into the in between leaning towards the catastrophic side.
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Yes, most philosophical theories are highly flawed and dangerous to put into play. Utopianism isn't the only one. Most of them start noble but then are distorted by miscommunications, misunderstandings, or ignorance. Some of theses philosophical theories can lead to catastrophic events and some can just lead to the corruption of moral values. The rest sorta fall in between. I think this one falls into the in between leaning towards the catastrophic side
The obeservation of the above nature naturally leads us this most pressing of all questions:Have human efforts to improve the quality of our existence inadervently resulted in great misery and grief being inflicted upon the world? And if so, should we cease all endeavours to devise systems of existence geared towards elevating human civilization? Should we simply restrict ourselves to meeting our most basic and urgent needs?
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Yes, most philosophical theories are highly flawed and dangerous to put into play. Utopianism isn't the only one. Most of them start noble but then are distorted by miscommunications, misunderstandings, or ignorance. Some of theses philosophical theories can lead to catastrophic events and some can just lead to the corruption of moral values. The rest sorta fall in between. I think this one falls into the in between leaning towards the catastrophic side
The obeservation of the above nature naturally leads us this most pressing of all questions:Have human efforts to improve the quality of our existence inadervently resulted in great misery and grief being inflicted upon the world? And if so, should we cease all endeavours to devise systems of existence geared towards elevating human civilization? Should we simply restrict ourselves to meeting our most basic and urgent needs?
Those are all brilliant and valid questions that we should ask ourselves. Sadly, our irresponsible leaders do not stop to think of these things before they act. In the end, we will probably never know. People would argue both sides of the issue. Many people would be torn as to their viewpoints, as am I. The elevation of civilization has brought acts of great kindness and acts of great cruelty. It is unknown whether one could or would outweigh the other.
Brilliant discussion points, sir. :-)
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Sadly, our irresponsible leaders do not stop to think of these things before they act.
It's in our nature to value personal short-term gratification over the future collective well-being of our species. In many ways, we're as guilty as the leaders who have failed us.
Brilliant discussion points, sir.
Thanks. That was an interesting and informative discussion that I had with you.
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Sadly, our irresponsible leaders do not stop to think of these things before they act.
It's in our nature to value personal short-term gratification over the future collective well-being of our species. In many ways, we're as guilty as the leaders who have failed us.
Brilliant discussion points, sir.
Thanks. That was an interesting and informative discussion that I had with you.
Agreed though some are better at resisting this instant gratification urge than others.
And, the best kinds of discussions are the ones where both parties learn something. :-)
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Agreed though some are better at resisting this instant gratification urge than others.
That is true. Sadly, such individuals are largely a rarity and their words are often doomed to go unheeded by their contemporaries. The most dramatic example of this fact that I can think of are the prophetic words of the Native American chieftain, Chief Seattle who warned in 1854 of the catastrophic damage that unchecked industrial development would evantually inflict on the planet's delicate eco-system. It is only now, centuries after his death, that the truth of his words have been acknowledged by the mainstream of society.
And, the best kinds of discussions are the ones where both parties learn something.
I couldn't agree more. Given the relative infrequency of such productive exchanges occuring on the Net, they are to be all the more cherished when they do take place.
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Agreed though some are better at resisting this instant gratification urge than others.
That is true. Sadly, such individuals are largely a rarity and their words are often doomed to go unheeded by their contemporaries. The most dramatic example of this fact that I can think of are the prophetic words of the Native American chieftain, Chief Seattle who warned in 1854 of the catastrophic damage that unchecked industrial development would evantually inflict on the planet's delicate eco-system. It is only now, centuries after his death, that the truth of his words have been acknowledged by the mainstream of society.
And, the best kinds of discussions are the ones where both parties learn something.
I couldn't agree more. Given the relative infrequency of such productive exchanges occuring on the Net, they are to be all the more cherished when they do take place.
I loved that speech by Chief Seattle. It was the most moving speech I've ever read. I wrote a report on it in ninth grade and how his words speak greatly to our modern society. I also discussed how it did not only speak on an industrial leven but on a psychological and societal level as well. Ah...good memories. Sorry, :focus:
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Something just occured to me, namely that it would have been interesting had Jones been apprehanded prior to the commencement of the mass suicide and subsequently subjected to a strenous psychological examination. Was the man a truly delusional meglomanaic who was convinced that he was justly opposed to a ruthless, fascist government? Or was he simply a bitter burn-out who wanted to share his misery with others?
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Eh, everybody believes they're the good guys. . .
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Eh, everybody believes they're the good guys. . .
Not everybody. I believe I am a terrible person but I have issues with myself....
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Okay, hypothetical question: You owned a factory when the depression hits, you have to make cuts somewhere, what do you do?
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Try to figure out who needs their jobs most, find ways to avoid cutting people (ex. cut back on paper, supplies, etc.), if anything try to cut pay before cutting people?
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you can cut anything, the fact is you need to cut costs but I need a specific example for this to work.
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Okay, supplies. Most businesses waste a lot anyway. I would tell people to conserve on paper, tools, etc. Anywhere that will not cause a hindrance to everyone involved will work. Also, I would have the people think of more creative ways to conserve that I missed.
Does that answer work?
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Sure, you think that's a good thing to do right? Well not everybody :-D
Ahem; please take a pick of the following scenarios:
(personally I think 2's the best and 3's most realistic)
1)Lacking the supplies they normally had, enough to waste, they need to be extra careful with the supplies they do have, this leads to more time to do stuff, which leads to overtime, which leads to unhappy workers, but that's not all. After the extra long and extra careful work somebody comes up with the finished project, instead of combing over it for mistakes he's overcofident he didn't make any mistakes, well he made a mistake and it ends up costing your company money, lots of money, all because of your stupid regulations. This leads to other cuts, eventually you can't cut anything else and you have to fire people, boom, your a bad person.
2)New regulations have been set up regulating the use of pens, paper, etc. Suddenly there's a whole bunch of red tape to go through everytime Nameless Worker A wants another thing of staples for his stapler, after a couple days of this he goes "screw it," and begins just taking what he needs. Months past but eventually his repeated infractions atract attention when it's time to check the books, well they add up and just reach the point where according to your regulations he has to be disciplined, so he gets a pay deduction, well angry at this he begins to get reckless on the job, which leads to more fines, this snowballs until he needs to be fired, and so he's fired. Let's say Nameless Worker A was an up-and-comer, gooooing places, until he get's fired that is. He's depressed, he drinks, he becomes an alcoholic, time passes in general misery for him and those around him, finally he can't take it anymore so he tries to jump off a reaaaaaaaaaally tall building, he gets talked down. He then gets into rehab & turns his life around, once that's all done he goes on the talk show circut, there he tells his story. Boom, your suddenly the person who caused him to do all that over some measely staples.
3) Like the others you set up new regulations, this leads to it taking longer hours at the office, less time with the family, Nameless Worker B misses little Suzzy's first steps. Boom you're scrooge, at least to one family.
There you see, you thought you were doing something good but other people have other opinions.
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There you see, you thought you were doing something good but other people have other opinions.
I couldn't agree more. When you seriously consider it, morality is really a matter of perception more than anything else.
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Sure, you think that's a good thing to do right? Well not everybody :-D
Ahem; please take a pick of the following scenarios:
(personally I think 2's the best and 3's most realistic)
1)Lacking the supplies they normally had, enough to waste, they need to be extra careful with the supplies they do have, this leads to more time to do stuff, which leads to overtime, which leads to unhappy workers, but that's not all. After the extra long and extra careful work somebody comes up with the finished project, instead of combing over it for mistakes he's overcofident he didn't make any mistakes, well he made a mistake and it ends up costing your company money, lots of money, all because of your stupid regulations. This leads to other cuts, eventually you can't cut anything else and you have to fire people, boom, your a bad person.
2)New regulations have been set up regulating the use of pens, paper, etc. Suddenly there's a whole bunch of red tape to go through everytime Nameless Worker A wants another thing of staples for his stapler, after a couple days of this he goes "screw it," and begins just taking what he needs. Months past but eventually his repeated infractions atract attention when it's time to check the books, well they add up and just reach the point where according to your regulations he has to be disciplined, so he gets a pay deduction, well angry at this he begins to get reckless on the job, which leads to more fines, this snowballs until he needs to be fired, and so he's fired. Let's say Nameless Worker A was an up-and-comer, gooooing places, until he get's fired that is. He's depressed, he drinks, he becomes an alcoholic, time passes in general misery for him and those around him, finally he can't take it anymore so he tries to jump off a reaaaaaaaaaally tall building, he gets talked down. He then gets into rehab & turns his life around, once that's all done he goes on the talk show circut, there he tells his story. Boom, your suddenly the person who caused him to do all that over some measely staples.
3) Like the others you set up new regulations, this leads to it taking longer hours at the office, less time with the family, Nameless Worker B misses little Suzzy's first steps. Boom you're scrooge, at least to one family.
There you see, you thought you were doing something good but other people have other opinions.
:lol: I didn't say that though and not everybody is going to agree with every decision you make. You said everybody thinks they're doing to right thing and I told you that I usually second guess my decisions and weigh them out. I agree with out on the majority level.
There you see, you thought you were doing something good but other people have other opinions.
I couldn't agree more. When you seriously consider it, morality is really a matter of perception more than anything else.
I agree as well. It is perception, nothing more, and nobody can tell you what to believe is right or wrong. That is where a lot of people get into trouble, when they want people to teach them morality.
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technically you said, and I qoute: I believe I am a terrible person but I have issues with myself....
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technically you said, and I qoute: I believe I am a terrible person but I have issues with myself....
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Eh...twas close enough. My main point was that there are some people that feel like they can't do anything right. I know a lot of them and I can be one myself.
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Ok, let me rephrase that, everybody that does something thinks they're the good guys, heck even hitler probbably thought he was doing the right thing. . .
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Ok, let me rephrase that, everybody that does something thinks they're the good guys, heck even hitler probbably thought he was doing the right thing. . .
Hitler did think they were doing the right thing. He thought he was saving Germany.
Okay, thanks for the rephrase. I think we both misunderstood each other due to misphrasing.