I think that's a little harsh. Ultimately, he is asking for the moon, but I think he has been given a rougher ride in response than, say, I would receive, simply because he is newer here than I.

I say asking for the moon, because he is asking "believers" in demons to validate their belief, which is much Like asking Christians or Muslims to validate their belief in God.

Some posts seem to have been removed, but I'm sure at one point someone told him that the reason he had received no results from a ouija board were because he "lacked faith..."

That's a very religious - and meaningless - response. "Faith" is simply a non-rational belief in a proposition, contrary to the sum of the evidence for that belief. The earth does not orbit the sun because we have faith that it does so. It will not stop orbiting the sun if we all lose faith in it doing so.

Many people here believe that demons are real. Some claim to have control over them. I don't think that it is unreasonable for him to ask these learnèd folk for assistance. I don't think it is unreasonable for him to become a tad frustrated when all he receives in reply is empty rhetoric and mystical-sounding woo.

To markml, I would say: My goal is to get people to think more deeply about what they believe without threat or disrespect. The target audience is not exactly on "our side," and so I have to walk a very fine line. It isn't easy. Carl Sagan wrote:

"Have I ever heard a skeptic wax superior and contemptuous? Certainly. I've even sometimes heard, to my retrospective dismay, that unpleasant tone in my own voice. There are human imperfections on both sides of this issue. Even when it's applied sensitively, scientific skepticism may come across as arrogant, dogmatic, heartless, and dismissive of the feelings and deeply held beliefs of others..."

Guilty, too, m'lud.

I at least try to throw in a joke or something when it starts to look as though I'm slaughtering a sacred cow too many.

Here's a couple to be going on with:

Q: How many skeptics does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Well, yes, the room went dark shortly AFTER the bulb burned out but that doesn’t mean it CAUSED the room to go dark. There could’ve been any number of events occurring at about the same time, any one of which could’ve been the trigger for the room darkening. You're committing a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. You should just leave it as is and see if the darkness clears itself up. If not, then you should consult a qualified darkness professional and see if they can determine the cause. The last thing you want to do is go messing around with some crazy lightbulb-changing home remedy. I mean, come on! Where did you read about that anyway, the internet?



Q: How many skeptics does it take to change a light bulb?

A: 11- One to change the lighbulb and ten to criticize the inaccurate reporting of it.

[jordyn]

I think that's a little harsh. Ultimately, he is asking for the moon, but I think he has been given a rougher ride in response than, say, I would receive, simply because he is newer here than I.

If it's not going to work for him, it won't...i don't know why.  Rather than insisting on proof of belief and expecting grand scale fireworks, why not spend his "i just don't understand" into researching why he has difficulties and others don't.  I've come up with most of my theories trying to figure out why i've always been surrounded by the supernatural, why my friend didn't experience anything until her brother killed himself and then there are those like my sister who've never experienced anything.

Is it a formation of the mind, an over abundance of chemicals, and overactive synapse firing?  I could go on...i don't know why he can't contact the supernatural, and i'm done trying to explain it in terms a non believer could understand, and don't have the intitiative to translate it into scientific jargon to try to simplify it anymore than i already have...there are better books and authors than what my personal experiences are obviously capable of offering him and asking people repeatedly that can't answer his question to his satisfaction. 

It's energy, you can't see it but if you stick a knife in the socket you sure do experience it, i don't care about them anymore and my help obviously isn't helping...maybe he's tryinng with plastic knives?

now that was harsh...

[FlamE]

I think that's a little harsh. Ultimately, he is asking for the moon, but I think he has been given a rougher ride in response than, say, I would receive, simply because he is newer here than I.

If it's not going to work for him, it won't...i don't know why.  Rather than insisting on proof of belief and expecting grand scale fireworks, why not spend his "i just don't understand" into researching why he has difficulties and others don't.  I've come up with most of my theories trying to figure out why i've always been surrounded by the supernatural, why my friend didn't experience anything until her brother killed himself and then there are those like my sister who've never experienced anything.

Is it a formation of the mind, an over abundance of chemicals, and overactive synapse firing?  I could go on...i don't know why he can't contact the supernatural, and i'm done trying to explain it in terms a non believer could understand, and don't have the intitiative to translate it into scientific jargon to try to simplify it anymore than i already have...there are better books and authors than what my personal experiences are obviously capable of offering him and asking people repeatedly that can't answer his question to his satisfaction. 

It's energy, you can't see it but if you stick a knife in the socket you sure do experience it, i don't care about them anymore and my help obviously isn't helping...maybe he's tryinng with plastic knives?

now that was harsh...

Why are you implying that there is something wrong with him and that is why he cannot accept the supernatural?

How can you know that it isn't just perception and illusions that make you think the supernatural is real? What if these 'abundance of chemicals, and overactive synapse firing' is making you believe it is real?

You cannot translate it into 'scientific jargon' because it wouldn't sound right. The supernatural and science cannot go hand in hand. But from what I know, science can be a little more trusting than the supernatural, since the latter is only based on testimonies of individuals who might have had their perception altered as well.


And don't use the 'then why is everyone reporting similar supernatural experiences?'. What's more likely for someone who's watched a horror movie about ghosts to report when he heard the door slam? 1. It was a ghost ; 2. It was a Yeti.

You cannot blame 'energy' for anything, but you still do it because it is the one major term that has a 'dark aura' around it, meaning that a part of it doesn't emit any electromagnetic radiation so people could study it better.

[jordyn]

I think that's a little harsh. Ultimately, he is asking for the moon, but I think he has been given a rougher ride in response than, say, I would receive, simply because he is newer here than I.

If it's not going to work for him, it won't...i don't know why.  Rather than insisting on proof of belief and expecting grand scale fireworks, why not spend his "i just don't understand" into researching why he has difficulties and others don't.  I've come up with most of my theories trying to figure out why i've always been surrounded by the supernatural, why my friend didn't experience anything until her brother killed himself and then there are those like my sister who've never experienced anything.

Is it a formation of the mind, an over abundance of chemicals, and overactive synapse firing?  I could go on...i don't know why he can't contact the supernatural, and i'm done trying to explain it in terms a non believer could understand, and don't have the intitiative to translate it into scientific jargon to try to simplify it anymore than i already have...there are better books and authors than what my personal experiences are obviously capable of offering him and asking people repeatedly that can't answer his question to his satisfaction. 

It's energy, you can't see it but if you stick a knife in the socket you sure do experience it, i don't care about them anymore and my help obviously isn't helping...maybe he's tryinng with plastic knives?

now that was harsh...

Why are you implying that there is something wrong with him and that is why he cannot accept the supernatural?

How can you know that it isn't just perception and illusions that make you think the supernatural is real? What if these 'abundance of chemicals, and overactive synapse firing' is making you believe it is real?

You cannot translate it into 'scientific jargon' because it wouldn't sound right. The supernatural and science cannot go hand in hand. But from what I know, science can be a little more trusting than the supernatural, since the latter is only based on testimonies of individuals who might have had their perception altered as well.


And don't use the 'then why is everyone reporting similar supernatural experiences?'. What's more likely for someone who's watched a horror movie about ghosts to report when he heard the door slam? 1. It was a ghost ; 2. It was a Yeti.

You cannot blame 'energy' for anything, but you still do it because it is the one major term that has a 'dark aura' around it, meaning that a part of it doesn't emit any electromagnetic radiation so people could study it better.

i didn't say there was anything wrong with him, quite the contrary i suggested he's better off, did you read anyting i've posted but the last one?

If it's a construct of my brain, then there is nothing, i'll find that out when i die, science will be able to successfully explain it and he'll still be running around pestering people because he's not "seeing it."  To put it more clearly, he's trying to get scientific proof for something that's NOT scientific from people who don't pursue science...so who's being facitious in this debate?

Ultimately it comes down to a brain's perception deciphering an unknown experience to the best of it's ability, and if you've read any other posts besides the one Jake chose to point out, you'd know what i've said, how often i've said it and the many places i've said it...links to other authors and groups that pursue what he's looking for, choosing to not beat my head against a wall over something that simply no longer applies to my life, it's in his hands and he's the one having issues getting the proof he wants...why is it my bad for pointing out, some people experience it, some people don't and i don't know why?!?

I hear a door slam, i ask who's up...having another adult and two children in the household would suggest it's one of them and not something supernatural, again...a person's perception of their environment. I watch horror movies like they're candy for a kid, but i see someone acting weird i don't assume they're possessed by a demon, i hope they're not on bath salts. 

I find my supernatural sitting in a flower garden at dusk watching their colors start to glow and scents get heavier...it's not my fault if people are looking for fireworks, i'm not required to give them a punk to help them along, i extinguished mine willingly a long time ago and it's up to that person to find their proof or accept it's not there.

so again, why am i the villian for shrugging my shoulders because he can't exdperience what others do, you're the expert instead of picking apart those who gave up trying to explain it, why don't you offer him help or do you have nothing else to offer but jumping on a bandwagon?

[FlamE]

My post was meant to sound so harsh not because I like to debate like this, neither because I found any of your posts except the last one offending. I'm sorry if I got it wrong, but from what I've read, you made it sound like there's something wrong with him because he has 'difficulties' witnessing supernatural events.

In the end, it seems that it was all just a misunderstanding. My apologies.

I just think the "believers" on this site would benefit a lot from two things. 

1.  A skeptical mindset
2.  A better understanding of science

Standards for proof seem to be pretty low for "believers".  There is the "But I saw it with my own eyes!", for some reason "believers" will assume it's more likely that it was the devil, a ghost, a spirit, or whatever....rather than the more likely spontaneous hallucination, just as an example.  Why is it that something that has little to no evidence for its existence (the devil, ghosts, spirits, god) is more likely than something that has been observed and has quite a bit of evidence behind it (spontaneous hallucinations) ?  Sounds like flawed reasoning to me. 

I've given "believers" the benefit of the doubt numerous times.  I still try to use my ouija board alone, in the dark, with candles, and nothing works.  I'm going to be attempting a spell to scry a demon in the mirror when I have time.  I'm also going to be going to a haunted location near my town.  A graveyard that has had sightings for decades.  And I will use the ouija board there.  I'll be bringing a knife or something though, because this graveyard is about a mile or two from civilization deep in the woods and the place really creeps me out lol. 

Same thing could be applied to "non-believers" (notice the quote-unquote i used again? xD)

I cant respect someones wish to make everything someone else went through as least as meaningful as they want. They never had it, they prolly never will (for the reasons known only to God, yes, the God most of you dont believe exists) experience anything meaningful. The only reason they wont, is their own heart and mind. You dont have to believe it its a free world. But showing utter disrespect towards other peoples beliefs, stomping on it and spitting on it (oh sure, words spit too) like everyone else but those of reason is not worth the time, well personally i think its all bull.

No, you wont find your precious empirical evidence here, and if you ever thought you will, then this is not a place for thee.

There are many sites that will really appreciate certain set of logic, but Monstrous is a place where people who find themselves different from that set of logic can meet their kind and discuss their questions without fear of being treated as instant lunatics.

So, for the sake of well being and decent debating, lets stop pretending we are the smartest and all knowing and accept that not all we know is as we think it is. Lower that ego screaming deep down in ya, and try to be open for this world.

And make this place a warm place to be, not a frigin close minded redneck bar....

Same thing could be applied to "non-believers" (notice the quote-unquote i used again? xD)

I cant respect someones wish to make everything someone else went through as least as meaningful as they want. They never had it, they prolly never will (for the reasons known only to God, yes, the God most of you dont believe exists) experience anything meaningful. The only reason they wont, is their own heart and mind. You dont have to believe it its a free world. But showing utter disrespect towards other peoples beliefs, stomping on it and spitting on it (oh sure, words spit too) like everyone else but those of reason is not worth the time, well personally i think its all bull.

No, you wont find your precious empirical evidence here, and if you ever thought you will, then this is not a place for thee.

There are many sites that will really appreciate certain set of logic, but Monstrous is a place where people who find themselves different from that set of logic can meet their kind and discuss their questions without fear of being treated as instant lunatics.

So, for the sake of well being and decent debating, lets stop pretending we are the smartest and all knowing and accept that not all we know i as we think it is. Lower that ego screaming deep down in ya, and try to be open fr this world.

What else would you prefer that I call people that believe in the supernatural?  Being called non believer doesn't offend me at all. 

How am I showing any disrespect towards you or anyone else?  You made a incredible claim stating that supernatural stuff is real, I did the reasonable thing and asked for evidence.  You came up empty handed, other than your own eyewitness testimonial. 

"Monstrous is a place where people who find themselves different from that set of logic can meet their kind" What you're saying is that Monstrous is a place for people who disregard logical scientific explanations to things and resort to the "more likely" scenario in which it was a demon, the devil, a ghost, a spirit, etc.  We're not treating you like lunatics.  The only thing I've said about people who believe unquestionably that demons, ghosts, spirits, etc are real is that they lack two things.  A skeptical mind set and a sufficient understanding of science.  I think anyone who believes in that stuff lacks both.  Everyone who has ever believed in that stuff in my experience has had no evidence other than eyewitness testimonial. And for me, that is nowhere near enough to make me a believer. 

You miss a point. Believing is not about evidence.

Okay?

that didn't answer my post at all

[jordyn]

I just think the "believers" on this site would benefit a lot from two things. 

1.  A skeptical mindset
2.  A better understanding of science

Standards for proof seem to be pretty low for "believers".  There is the "But I saw it with my own eyes!", for some reason "believers" will assume it's more likely that it was the devil, a ghost, a spirit, or whatever....rather than the more likely spontaneous hallucination, just as an example.  Why is it that something that has little to no evidence for its existence (the devil, ghosts, spirits, god) is more likely than something that has been observed and has quite a bit of evidence behind it (spontaneous hallucinations) ?  Sounds like flawed reasoning to me. 

I've given "believers" the benefit of the doubt numerous times.  I still try to use my ouija board alone, in the dark, with candles, and nothing works.  I'm going to be attempting a spell to scry a demon in the mirror when I have time.  I'm also going to be going to a haunted location near my town.  A graveyard that has had sightings for decades.  And I will use the ouija board there.  I'll be bringing a knife or something though, because this graveyard is about a mile or two from civilization deep in the woods and the place really creeps me out lol. 

My post was meant to sound so harsh not because I like to debate like this, neither because I found any of your posts except the last one offending. I'm sorry if I got it wrong, but from what I've read, you made it sound like there's something wrong with him because he has 'difficulties' witnessing supernatural events.

In the end, it seems that it was all just a misunderstanding. My apologies.

i find the issue with someone who is not finding the proof he wants and still on the fence, wanting to believe but won't without proof while belittling those who do believe and already have had their own reasons for doing so.

I just think the "believers" on this site would benefit a lot from two things. 

1.  A skeptical mindset
2.  A better understanding of science

Standards for proof seem to be pretty low for "believers".  There is the "But I saw it with my own eyes!", for some reason "believers" will assume it's more likely that it was the devil, a ghost, a spirit, or whatever....rather than the more likely spontaneous hallucination, just as an example.  Why is it that something that has little to no evidence for its existence (the devil, ghosts, spirits, god) is more likely than something that has been observed and has quite a bit of evidence behind it (spontaneous hallucinations) ?  Sounds like flawed reasoning to me. 

I've given "believers" the benefit of the doubt numerous times.  I still try to use my ouija board alone, in the dark, with candles, and nothing works.  I'm going to be attempting a spell to scry a demon in the mirror when I have time.  I'm also going to be going to a haunted location near my town.  A graveyard that has had sightings for decades.  And I will use the ouija board there.  I'll be bringing a knife or something though, because this graveyard is about a mile or two from civilization deep in the woods and the place really creeps me out lol. 

In one paragraph he doesn't mind being a nonbeliever, in another those who do believe are incapable of doubting their senses or understanding science and then he's going out in the woods with a quija board and knife to find proof of something he doesn't believe in because it's "creepy", giving us the benefit of the doubt?

so who's being illogical in this whole endeavor?

"How am I showing any disrespect towards you or anyone else?"

I just think the "believers" on this site would benefit a lot from two things. 

1.  A skeptical mindset
2.  A better understanding of science

Monstrous is a place where people who find themselves different from that set of logic can meet their kind" What you're saying is that Monstrous is a place for people who disregard logical scientific explanations to things and resort to the "more likely" scenario in which it was a demon, the devil, a ghost, a spirit, etc.

I'm open to anything.  I just think that the majority of people have low standards for "proof". 

Also, how would my doubt benefit me?  If I had to guess, I would say it keeps me from jumping to conclusions and assuming that literally every sound I heard at night simply HAD to be of demonic origins.

The proverbs you referenced, could it be that simply talking about it just puts you on edge and makes you jumpy and start seeing things in the corner of your eye? 

I do not require "proof" to believe something.  I require credible evidence to decide whether I want to believe a claim someone makes.  It is what any sane, rational minded person would want

I think people should have an open mind, raise their standards on what they choose to believe in, and never be too proud to say "maybe i was wrong". 

You seem to make the conclusion that whatever makes your job easier = logical.  But, whatever makes the company more efficient, is not logical.  Logic to you is simply a perspective then?  I do not mean to be rude, but that is the conclusion I came to and I detailed my reasoning.

If demons are real, I would assume it would only make sense that God is real as well, and in that case...I totally screwed up and got it all MAJORLY wrong.  What am I to believe based off of evidence though?  Am I supposed to blindly believe there is a God?  Choosing to blindly believe in anything does not sit well with me. 

"Ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise"  A highly subjective quote, as it varies significantly with each person.  Some people are more comfortable being ignorant to the truth.  Some people are more comfortable knowing the truth.  I am more comfortable knowing the truth, than continuing to live in an illusion. 

And for me, that is nowhere near enough to make me a believer. 

I've given "believers" the benefit of the doubt numerous times.  I still try to use my ouija board alone, in the dark, with candles, and nothing works.  I'm going to be attempting a spell to scry a demon in the mirror when I have time.  I'm also going to be going to a haunted location near my town.  A graveyard that has had sightings for decades.  And I will use the ouija board there.  I'll be bringing a knife or something though, because this graveyard is about a mile or two from civilization deep in the woods and the place really creeps me out lol.

i just got off work an hour ago and relaxing at home with my daughter watching a muppet movie on cable i pay for, you're sneaking around woodsy urban graveyards with a knife and quija board looking for something you don't believe in...

I'm very confused.

I can whole heartedly agree, take no offense at this statement and leaving the argument on that note.

[jordyn]

My post was meant to sound so harsh not because I like to debate like this, neither because I found any of your posts except the last one offending. I'm sorry if I got it wrong, but from what I've read, you made it sound like there's something wrong with him because he has 'difficulties' witnessing supernatural events.

In the end, it seems that it was all just a misunderstanding. My apologies.

I think we agree on a whole lot more than i think it would initially seem, we both respect the power of the human brain and acknowledge it's importance in all matters human. 

Honestly, i understand the impracticality of my beliefs but it works for me and in the realm of supernatural belief, it's pretty rational, but it's just my theory derived from personal experiences, some with close friends and in a constant process of elaborate thought, leading into more studies of psychology and neuroscience. 

Just because someone hasn't experienced what i have doesn't make anything wrong with them, just not like me...and i like it that way. I'm becoming skeptical about his sincerity, i don't mind people who disagree with my theories and offer counter points as to why, without insulting me for the fact that i experience things they don't, i know those people are out there, but even they admit no one knows the answer to that question. I would like science to offer a provable fact and not rational theories as to how and why it happens, then i'd know what makes the difference between how some minds process unknown sensations and what causes altered perceptions of those experiences, but until psychology supercedes established knowledge and proves scientifically how the mind influences fact and behavior, we're left with "ghosts and demons".

They're just now unraveling why some people kill and others don't, i'm not holding my breath for an answer any time soon. 

[jordyn]

I think that's a little harsh. Ultimately, he is asking for the moon, but I think he has been given a rougher ride in response than, say, I would receive, simply because he is newer here than I.

I say asking for the moon, because he is asking "believers" in demons to validate their belief, which is much Like asking Christians or Muslims to validate their belief in God.

Some posts seem to have been removed, but I'm sure at one point someone told him that the reason he had received no results from a ouija board were because he "lacked faith..."

That's a very religious - and meaningless - response. "Faith" is simply a non-rational belief in a proposition, contrary to the sum of the evidence for that belief. The earth does not orbit the sun because we have faith that it does so. It will not stop orbiting the sun if we all lose faith in it doing so.

Many people here believe that demons are real. Some claim to have control over them. I don't think that it is unreasonable for him to ask these learnèd folk for assistance. I don't think it is unreasonable for him to become a tad frustrated when all he receives in reply is empty rhetoric and mystical-sounding woo.

To markml, I would say: My goal is to get people to think more deeply about what they believe without threat or disrespect. The target audience is not exactly on "our side," and so I have to walk a very fine line. It isn't easy. Carl Sagan wrote:

"Have I ever heard a skeptic wax superior and contemptuous? Certainly. I've even sometimes heard, to my retrospective dismay, that unpleasant tone in my own voice. There are human imperfections on both sides of this issue. Even when it's applied sensitively, scientific skepticism may come across as arrogant, dogmatic, heartless, and dismissive of the feelings and deeply held beliefs of others..."

Guilty, too, m'lud.

I at least try to throw in a joke or something when it starts to look as though I'm slaughtering a sacred cow too many.

Here's a couple to be going on with:

Q: How many skeptics does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Well, yes, the room went dark shortly AFTER the bulb burned out but that doesn’t mean it CAUSED the room to go dark. There could’ve been any number of events occurring at about the same time, any one of which could’ve been the trigger for the room darkening. You're committing a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. You should just leave it as is and see if the darkness clears itself up. If not, then you should consult a qualified darkness professional and see if they can determine the cause. The last thing you want to do is go messing around with some crazy lightbulb-changing home remedy. I mean, come on! Where did you read about that anyway, the internet?



Q: How many skeptics does it take to change a light bulb?

A: 11- One to change the lighbulb and ten to criticize the inaccurate reporting of it.

It's pointless debating this with you, but those jokes are splendid!!!

...I'll leave this at that.   

I think this went totally off topic. If mark will have any further issues, he can start a new topic once he thinks over his attitude.  I wont let any more topics merge into one big "You suck  cause I dont have a proof" theme...

Any questions about it, send me pm. Tnx.

This conversation was actually continued in another topic

http://www.monstrous.com/forum/index.php?topic=13438.0

Nina can respond once she learns to control her emotions and not abuse her power, when decides to come back to this site of course.