[jordyn]

We all know that by the angel lore, the devil is a malicious fiend hell bent on destroying humanity, but there are certain stories and movies that show he can be sort of an anti hero, saving humanity because he's not ready to lose yet.

sort of brings up the suggestion that there's no ultimate evil, just as there's no ultimate good.  Even in the piers anthony's incarnates of immortality, he utilizes the devil to actually save the world, while keeping to his "i'm so evil" persona. While presenting a wonderful, aspect to why some incarnates change as  people change.

Maybe it's the people using them that make devils and demons "evil" rather than just accepting that their nature is to tempt humanity to prove to "god" that we're not good enough for what he's given us.  In some ways having them present is a good thing to spirituality, making you choose what sort of person you want to be.

Absolute evil determined to destroy all that's good to achieve a sense of false power or using them as reminders that being human we're held to higher expectations than the spirit world, we're the only creatures that can choos to do good or evil, celebrate life or destroy it...with the luxury of blaming the spiritual world when we fail at being human.

[grimweird]

This sort of thing (in my experience) more often than not will degenerate into a circular argument if the religious and non-religious start squaring off and baring their fangs. Here's my 2 cents at any rate...

Personally I believe in god but not religion. I think that would make me an agnostic right?

I believe a higher force, unfathomable to us, created "existence" or "all that there is" in this reality we live in. "Good" and "Evil" in this reality beyond our individual comprehension of the word is meaningless. As far as I'm concerned there is only what "is". I'll try to elaborate...

Good and Evil are essentially black and white, one cannot exist without the other. How would we know the one if we have not been exposed to the other? Our life experiences, will, whether we are aware of it or not color our behavior. The society we live in will also brand us according to it's perceptions, which may or may not be valid or correct.

As an example, while killing is usually seen as evil, it is not so. Thievery is also the same, yet many religions forbid it as the people practicing them see it as such. Morality, guilt and other such concepts act as a compass to steer us towards what we consider as good and evil. But are unquantifiable should our local version of present human society not tell us that they are and should be considered.

No man is so good as to be completely without flaw and so evil as to be completely without virtue, to suggest that heaven is perfection and hell is damnation is incomprehensible but to only the individual's and his society's perceptions

I sort of believe that these "good" and "evil" concepts are actually more of a tool that we require to maintain the current evolutionary state of our human society.

Err... I hope I'm making sense.

[jordyn]

This sort of thing (in my experience) more often than not will degenerate into a circular argument if the religious and non-religious start squaring off and baring their fangs. Here's my 2 cents at any rate...

Personally I believe in god but not religion. I think that would make me an agnostic right?

I believe a higher force, unfathomable to us, created "existence" or "all that there is" in this reality we live in. "Good" and "Evil" in this reality beyond our individual comprehension of the word is meaningless. As far as I'm concerned there is only what "is". I'll try to elaborate...

Good and Evil are essentially black and white, one cannot exist without the other. How would we know the one if we have not been exposed to the other? Our life experiences, will, whether we are aware of it or not color our behavior. The society we live in will also brand us according to it's perceptions, which may or may not be valid or correct.

As an example, while killing is usually seen as evil, it is not so. Thievery is also the same, yet many religions forbid it as the people practicing them see it as such. Morality, guilt and other such concepts act as a compass to steer us towards what we consider as good and evil. But are unquantifiable should our local version of present human society not tell us that they are and should be considered.

No man is so good as to be completely without flaw and so evil as to be completely without virtue, to suggest that heaven is perfection and hell is damnation is incomprehensible but to only the individual's and his society's perceptions

I sort of believe that these "good" and "evil" concepts are actually more of a tool that we require to maintain the current evolutionary state of our human society.

Err... I hope I'm making sense.

actually you are, perceptions of good and evil to change from culture to culture, time to time...several thousand years ago it was acceptable to toss your first born into a flaming mouth to a ravenous god, it was an honor to be sacrificed to your gods; now a days people would be outraged. In the industrialized world witches are no longer prosecuted but in places like africa and mexico they can still be tried and stoned.

I understand your statement about religion also, i'm not a very dogmatic person, especially if it pertains to some one elses dogma and why perhaps i can view the "devil" differently than most christians, but i have more of an old testament bend to my faith.  Religion is like sex in away, as people fail to seperate sex and love, so people fail to seperate religion from sprituality.

I believe buddhist have a similiar idea about a higher force, and a lot of other faiths have similiar theologies, not boxing It into a nice, neat package but fracturing it into many aspects of nature that permeates all living creatures in the world, connecting us all.  Some aspects are just nicer than others.

[grimweird]

Yeah, that's more or less what I'm saying. It's all about how we, as a sentient race, perceive things. These perceptions IMHO change as our society changes which will then come back and effect our individual outlook. Society is more like a mass compromise rather than a mass consensus i.e we may not like all of it's rules, but it's better to "follow the crowd" and live with a little discomfort  than to whatever we want whenever we want to and descend into total anarchy.

Society after all is still; at the end of the day nothing more than a large collection of individuals following a set of rules to facilitate us living together on this rock. Satisfying EVERYONE and making them all happy, all the time, when each one has his/her own free will and individual wants and needs is probably a job that even god would find impossible to pull off.

Which segues into religion Yes, that's also what I feel about religion, I suppose it's a useful enough concept to those who have need of it. But as a species (and a relatively infant one if Darwin is right) I think we put too much stock in it. As I said before, the religious definitions of what constitutes good and evil are still up to the individual's personal outlook, which in turn would be colored by his own experiences.

A muslim extremist jihadist may feel it's holy and righteous to blow up a packed fashion show in Paris for example, while a staunchly protestant fighter pilot may feel it's fine to drop a laser-guided bomb in downtown Baghdad or a Hutu tribesman may feel he's doing the world a favor by raping and murdering as many Tutsi tribeswomen he can get his hands on... How would a benevolent god reconcile any of these deeds? He can't. Only we can. And it's us, the human race which too often impresses our beliefs on others of our kind.

Anyway, we've gone off on a tangent  the Devil as an anti-hero would be okay for me as my head might we wired a bit differently, but I suppose it will probably depend on how you choose to present the subject matter and the individual proclivities of each audience member...

[jordyn]

I got a book yesterday, the adversary which discusses how christians can fight and deny the trappings of the devil...i suppose my weakness would be the flesh, but at the same time if you avoid him all together, how can your faith ever be tested?

i think the egyptians had sort of the idea how a god, or gods would deal with such complications we present, the feather test...if your heart is lighter then the feather, it's all good. I don't think any rational god would punish a person who does more good than wicked, even if they are subject to hedonism.

the devil just makes sure you keep things balanced, if you become unbalanced, that's when his job is done. I've been doing a lot of this discussion with my daughter, trick r treat with the little spirit sam is amazing in helping her understand the concept of there being no absolute good or evil, just different sides of the same coin. The adversary reminds us of that while our heart should dictate it.

[grimweird]

Hmm... I always thought the whole Test of Anubis / Weight of Sin thing was fiction... Is it really something documented?

As in all religions, the original writings or teachings were probably warped by time and the fallibility of human interpretation. I think a scene in the 2005 movie "Kingdom of Heaven" is most descriptive of this. David Thewlis's character says something along the line of:

"I put no stock in religion. By the word "religion"... I've seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God. I've seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness... is in right action... and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. And goodness... what God really desires of us... is here*points at the heart* and here *points at the brain*. By what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man. Or not..."

Oh and about your daughter, I suppose it's important to educate children, but might it not be better perhaps if they be allowed to experience childhood without these rather nasty realities?

[jordyn]

Hmm... I always thought the whole Test of Anubis / Weight of Sin thing was fiction... Is it really something documented?

As in all religions, the original writings or teachings were probably warped by time and the fallibility of human interpretation. I think a scene in the 2005 movie "Kingdom of Heaven" is most descriptive of this. David Thewlis's character says something along the line of:

"I put no stock in religion. By the word "religion"... I've seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of God. I've seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness... is in right action... and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. And goodness... what God really desires of us... is here*points at the heart* and here *points at the brain*. By what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man. Or not..."

Oh and about your daughter, I suppose it's important to educate children, but might it not be better perhaps if they be allowed to experience childhood without these rather nasty realities?

oh yeah, it's amazing what they know about Egyptian rites and rituals, well...maybe not really amazing considering how thorough their record keeping was.

http://www.egyptartsite.com/hall1.html

they had a pretty elaborate procession for their dead, it all came down to the heart to.