[jordyn]

Well what do you mean about religous history?  Like what exactly doesn't fit?

I mean its hard for anyone to really know where everything supernatural originates from because i'm sure existed before even the ability to keep a record of such things.  I'm just saying that it seems to fit for me.

If you look at a typical excorsism the person trying to remove the entity usually calls for the help of God to expel the being, they also refer to the entity as a demon or being from hell something related to satan.  I mean the victim themselves while in possesion tend to refer to themselves as being 'satan'.  While i hardy believe that satan would waste time possessing a single person, i'm sure an entity like a demon would try to impersonate satan.  Basically what i'm getting at is that demons and christianity go hand in hand so it only seems right to fit demons with satan as his minions.

because western religious history sort of works like this:  A man gets called into the dessert by a nameless God, leaves his city of idolatry to wander in the dessert, this small tribe becomes the Israelites that go searching for Abraham's promised land, along the way they run into other cultures, other gods and eventually found Judaism, after so many years a Jew is born that starts preaching the folly of placing more faith in the religious leaders, hierarchy and material wealth, after a few more years they're prosecuted, tortured and fed to the lions for being heretics...picked up by Rome as the fledgling Christianity is on the verge of being wiped out and then some holier than thou emperor shows up with his mother and start gathering relics after a large blazing cross comes to him in a dream, thus the roman catholic church is founded, follow that with the Lutheran and protestant protests and you get the Christianity we have today.

http://www.letusreason.org/Cult11.htm

and let's not forget Zoroaster and his dualism, the jews don't have a hell...explain that one.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Afterlife_and_Messiah/Life_After_Death/Heaven_and_Hell.shtml

i love the jews, they taught me everything i know about christianity. 

[Moloch]

I'll even go one step further with you, Zep. The christian god is supposedly the only one with the power to create and destroy a spirit. Demons are spirits. Therefore, it follows that Satan cannot create spirits or demons.

Well that is interesting.  I really didn't know that the Judaic religion didn't believe in a Hell.  Following that then where would people who don't believe in their faith reside?  After death do they just dissappear or in the Judaic religion does everyone go to Heaven? 


Moloch:  I kind of dissagree with you there.  Sure God is depicted as a powerful creator but Angels are also very powerful.  Under God Angels wouldnt need to create because they are servants of God therefore they would only do as God asks.  Lucifer rebelled and left God this could technically open up many doors as Lucifer was one of the most loved and most powerful Angels in heaven.  There is a possibility that he could have the power to create as he wanted to be his own 'God' figure.

Now considering Lucifer can't create spirits, lets just go that way.  Is it possible that for every spirit he can tempt to sin and corrupt on Earth he can create a demon from them?  That way it cuts out the creation process.  Just a theory but its possible.  I mean you also have another third of angels who rebelled with Lucifer and they became in my opinion 'devils'.  The word devil kind of is thought to refer to Lucifer as THE Devil.  I think Angels who rebelled became devils.

Its all in theory i mean you can't prove or really disprove it because no one knows for sure.  I'm just trying to argue that Lucifer technically could have possessed enough power to create and if he didn't he has other means of obtaining spirits to corrupt and make into demons.

[jordyn]

i posted a link explaining what their perception is, basically for them it's an existence without God, as for your lucifer...

"The answer was a surprise. I had to sit back into a cotton bean bag chair and take a moment before continuing. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

and that's from the mormons!

[jordyn]

I'll even go one step further with you, Zep. The christian god is supposedly the only one with the power to create and destroy a spirit. Demons are spirits. Therefore, it follows that Satan cannot create spirits or demons.

i support this statement, if the angels were cast from God's grace then any of the "abilities" they had from him would also be gone, they obviously could create life or there'd have been no nephilim to debate...but once God removes Himself from you, you can't exactly claim His gifts, and why those who have been removed from his grace have to become parasites preying on our energy.

Lucifer waged war against heaven though. I don't think Angels who had entirely lost their abilities could take on Angels who had Gods power.  I mean granted they lost and were cast back into Hell they still had to put up a good fight.  Lucifer must have retained some of his former glory, probably not all of it but he was created very powerful.

It doesnt make sense to me though the whole Babylonian king idea..  How does a king Rebel against himself?  Unless your saying the entire rebellion was just part of the fiction created.  And a fallen king?  It doesn't really fit in my head..

I'll even go one step further with you, Zep. The christian god is supposedly the only one with the power to create and destroy a spirit. Demons are spirits. Therefore, it follows that Satan cannot create spirits or demons.

Not trying to step on toes.. but, I disagree with your statement well somewhat. In the christian faith god is the only one who can create a spirit but, Demons are not spirits. Satan could not create a spirit since he himself does not have one. (Nor does any angel fallen or otherwise.)

Lucifer was at one time gods fav till the disagreement over the whole soul/spirit thing in humans and not angels.

We all know how the argument ended. After Lucifer's fall he created demons to torment and corrupt humans to spite god. I do not follow any christian path but this is what Ive discovered in my research.

[jordyn]

 

Lucifer waged war against heaven though. I don't think Angels who had entirely lost their abilities could take on Angels who had Gods power.  I mean granted they lost and were cast back into Hell they still had to put up a good fight.  Lucifer must have retained some of his former glory, probably not all of it but he was created very powerful.

It doesnt make sense to me though the whole Babylonian king idea..  How does a king Rebel against himself?  Unless your saying the entire rebellion was just part of the fiction created.  And a fallen king?  It doesn't really fit in my head..

history, read good old fashioned history...and not the high school happy stuff, i'm talking about actual ancient history....there were many kings that like our own presidents made promises and fail in them, those that disagree with the king...like any other politics they had their reporters.

there's no serious support for a war in heaven that resulted in a hell or lucifer...the only fall actually mentioned is those that fell for human women, some links so we understand where you get your ideas may help, where does the lucifer story come from if the jews have it wrong?

milton's paradise lost was pretty fantastic, as was dantes inferno....but those are hardly religious fact

i'm serious, i've posted and stated a lot where i got my belief that lucifer is all romanticized fantasy from 16-17th century literature, yet those that are most adamant he's an actual biblical figure have yet to show me why they disagree.

this is the biggest issue facing spirituality today, so many faiths, ideas and beliefs are muddled with new age, media and fantasy novels that no one really knows what they believe, just what they believe with no basis in anything other than their own understandings.  i'm tired of simplifying ideas, linking verification and obviously parables are lost on most of the young here....oh Lord, now i know what Christ went through!!!!

it's called a library people!

[jordyn]

I'll even go one step further with you, Zep. The christian god is supposedly the only one with the power to create and destroy a spirit. Demons are spirits. Therefore, it follows that Satan cannot create spirits or demons.

Not trying to step on toes.. but, I disagree with your statement well somewhat. In the christian faith god is the only one who can create a spirit but, Demons are not spirits. Satan could not create a spirit since he himself does not have one. (Nor does any angel fallen or otherwise.)

Lucifer was at one time gods fav till the disagreement over the whole soul/spirit thing in humans and not angels.

We all know how the argument ended. After Lucifer's fall he created demons to torment and corrupt humans to spite god. I do not follow any christian path but this is what Ive discovered in my research.

you haven't read this thread in it's entirety, have you?

you haven't read this thread in it's entirety, have you?
[/quote]

Yes I have not to sure what you mean by that to be honest.

[MrMystery]

Whoa... Reading the post is interesting.

[Muerte]

you haven't read this thread in it's entirety, have you?

Yes I have not to sure what you mean by that to be honest.
[/quote]

  What she means is that everything you have just said has already been covered, in some cases more than once.  As for stepping on toes?  Well I'm going to have to say that the toes you have chosen to step on happen to be one of the biggest sets in this community.  Good luck with that.  However I do regard your ambition somewhat.  "Come big or don't come at all"  Now let's see how this all plays out.

you haven't read this thread in it's entirety, have you?

Yes I have not to sure what you mean by that to be honest.

  What she means is that everything you have just said has already been covered, in some cases more than once.  As for stepping on toes?  Well I'm going to have to say that the toes you have chosen to step on happen to be one of the biggest sets in this community.  Good luck with that.  However I do regard your ambition somewhat.  "Come big or don't come at all"  Now let's see how this all plays out.
[/quote]

Ok i understand some of what Ive said was said before and like you said in some cases more than once. Guess ill get flammed for being the new guy lol. Not sure what you meant by the "Good luck with that" comment..

Thought open discussion is encouraged on forums. So if I disagree with what someone posted I should be able to comment about it in a civil way right? Cause if not it becomes a (insert name here) knows more about the subject because they post more, and credibility goes out the window.

Again not being argumentative at all. I have spent years of my life in study and practical application I only joined to share thoughts/ideas and maybe help a person or two along the way.

[Moloch]

The toes he's referring to you stepping on are mine, and mine are not stepped on lightly by older members, if at all. You earn a reprieve tonight though, as I have had a really rotten day at work and I don't believe you deserve to be the recipient of all of that anger.

Tomorrow night though, or the next day... we shall see.

[Muerte]

  Post count counts for squat when it comes to credibility.  The proving of ones facts and being completely familiar with the facts of a discussion on the other hand hold great sway in the way of credibility.  We do encourage open involvement and even opposing views in discussions, but you should keep one thing in mind when you speak here.  We all play for keeps.  This is Monstrous Hunter, not the happy fuzzy joy luck community.  We help people here to be sure, but it is often through   the tough love variety.  You'll rarely if ever find the shoulder to cry on type here.  Not trying to be crass, not really, but it is the truth.