Monstrous
Apocalypse Soon => Religions, Cults & Sects => Topic started by: Necropolis on July 19, 2006, 07:10:29 PM
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I actually realized something about magic workers recently. Most of us were raised in a Christian home taught Christain rules and beliefs which means, We would rather die and go to Hell for what we believe that be raised up and sanctified for something we don't
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why is an outdated book necessary for people to know how to be adults...that's another problem i perceive with the bible...it encourages people to rely on some external source to make them good, and blaming an equally external source for their crimes against a book,
the ten commandments say it all...why should i struggle to apply aspects to my life that make me miserable or suffer guilt for choices i make...only able to gain forgiveness from a, beign that may or may not exist?
Jordyn, you have no idea how alike we are. I have said everything you say at one time or another in my life, sometimes in the very same words. It's kind of eerie for me.
All I can really say is that once I totally opened my heart and mind to the possibility that the God of Abraham did indeed exist, He let me know He was alive and well and loved me.
I think that's one of the problems with trying to share Christianity. It's such a personal relationship with the Creator that it can't be described in words.
Even after baptism almost three years ago it wasn't clear to me what a precious book the Bible is. I began reading it - frankly it seemed a little dry. So I attended Bible Study at my church on Wednesday nights. That helped a little bit, but this precious book came to life for me after I heard a female teacher giving lessons on different topics in the Bible, going back and forth from the Old Testament to the New Testament in every instance to show how they're tied together. When I heard her excitement and discerned that she was completely sincere, I began questioning God about her joy, "Please, whatever it is that she has, I want that, too." (BethMoore.org). There is nothing like a close relationship with our Creator - as I said, mere words don't really describe the overwhelming joy, gladness, gratitude and just happiness in being alive.
My life is not all that great by anyone's standards. Walking with Christ doesn't mean we won't experience terrible tragedies and tough times. There's just something about KNOWING, not just 'kind of believing and hoping', that He is indeed really there. I'm more sure of that than of my own heartbeat.
Sorry, I didn't mean to preach. I just got a little excited. :roll:
~Morticia
suprisingly, your "preaching" doesn't bother me, probably because you don't try to beat me over the head with it, and shove it down my throat when i fall unconscious. ;)
i can understand the relationship with god, but the bible has so many outmoded ideals and concepts with no guarantee that god had anything to do with it...especially since it seems to reflect much older, creation theories;
the zoroastrian ideal of an all good god and an all evil god consistantly battling for the earth...zeus having to defeat all the wicked titans to become the supreme beign, resulting in monsters desiring to destroy, humanity; and they all blame a woman for the downfall of all that was good and pure...resulting in punishment for man's love of her and punishing women with painful childbirth and cramping bleeding for daring to, be independent...
what sort of god would desire that for his children?
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I actually realized something about magic workers recently. Most of us were raised in a Christian home taught Christain rules and beliefs which means, We would rather die and go to Hell for what we believe that be raised up and sanctified for something we don't
i've had this pointed out to me before...oddly enough most of those i associate with started out catholic...like me.
"Only for Roman Catholics: and they're all satanists anyway; they just don't realise it yet."
if they're not satanists, they drive people to it. *chuckles*
so what does a non catholic christian have to do to gain forgiveness for being, human?
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"Only for Roman Catholics: and they're all satanists anyway; they just don't realise it yet."
Its the statues you know idolatry and all. Although the crucifix can also be bought under this banner.
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"Only for Roman Catholics: and they're all satanists anyway; they just don't realise it yet."
Its the statues you know idolatry and all. Although the crucifix can also be bought under this banner.
i always like the mother mary, statues...always so peaceful and content.
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I actually realized something about magic workers recently. Most of us were raised in a Christian home taught Christain rules and beliefs which means, We would rather die and go to Hell for what we believe that be raised up and sanctified for something we don't
Or maybe it means they never quite grew up and grew out of the rebelling-against-parents thing? Maybe there's a psychological development theory behind that. I've always mused that people who want to engage in the, often egocentric, wish-fulfilment that lies at the heart of magical systems are less drawn to magick through conscious choice and more through the way they process the world and interpret their world-view. Which, depending upon which side of the divide you stand in the nature vs nurture debate, would date back to their earliest interactions with their parents and the style of nurturing/parental love they experienced.
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I actually realized something about magic workers recently. Most of us were raised in a Christian home taught Christain rules and beliefs which means, We would rather die and go to Hell for what we believe that be raised up and sanctified for something we don't
Or maybe it means they never quite grew up and grew out of the rebelling-against-parents thing? Maybe there's a stunted development issue going on. I've always mused that people who want to believe in the unrealistic wish-fulfilment that lies at the heart of magical systems are really just anally retentive, perhaps still locked in the Electra/Oedipus battle to usurp one parent for the love of the other. :|
wow, that's harsh...and rather a suprisingly, bible basher outburst, from you.
and believing a prayer on your knees to some god that's a mere two thousand years old will solve all your problems is any better?
stunted development
...really?
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Yeah but there is a flaw in that Oedipus didn't know she was his mother. So I hear.
Nah, I believed in magic long before rebellion became an issue. I wanted to be a magician or a mad scientist back when I was four and my mother was still trying to fill my head with the BS it was evil. That never rang true in my heart.
BTW I come from a Jehovah Witness family. So I dont get hel I get to cease to be, so doesn't worry me.
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Yeah but there is a flaw in that Oedipus didn't know she was his mother. So I hear.
Nah, I believed in magic long before rebellion became an issue. I wanted to be a magician or a mad scientist back when I was four and my mother was still trying to fill my head with the BS it was evil. That never rang true in my heart.
BTW I come from a Jehovah Witness family. So I dont get hel I get to cease to be, so doesn't worry me.
my mother just had be try catachism...she realized i didn't get anything out of it, and as she wasn't exactly a mother theresa....she eventually saw the pointlessness in any hope of me seeing things, her way...she apologized for making me miserable and we got over it.
i never had to rebel against either parents...my mother let me make my own decisions and my father wasn't involved in our lives until, many years later, we were sort of latch key kids....
i guess those with stunted development can still think for themselves and take care of a younger brother and sister...and grow up into responsible adults.
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Wasn't meant to be harsh! :-)
I was trying to get across a sense of the psychological background, but my youngest was yelling and screaming at the clouds at the time, so I was a little... rushed.
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That's what it should say. :-)
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wow, that's harsh...and rather a suprisingly, bible basher outburst, from you.
Doesn't mention the Bible at all.
and believing a prayer on your knees to some god that's a mere two thousand years old will solve all your problems is any better?
Doesn't mention prayer, and besides I don't believe prayer works in that way. Only you can solve your problems, God isn't interventionist in that way.
stunted development
I think there's a valid psychological theory there. Necropolis' post about how everyone they know in magick is from a Christian background but actually wants to burn in Hell... Well, that's surely more than coincidence.
...really?
Really.
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Its till a secret from my parents, my dad a lazy catholic and my mother a paranoid protestant. Oddly enough, they made me and my brother be confirmed as Methodists. But yeah, what they dont know wont hurt them until Ive moved out and can tell them myself without the constant daily arguing over it.
Edit: Everyone else is sharing so I figured I would too...
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wow, that's harsh...and rather a suprisingly, bible basher outburst, from you.
Doesn't mention the Bible at all.
it was a common response by those who do bash people with the bible...engaging in such techniques, when tryng to making their point, and they are presented a contradictory point against what they know, they usually reply in some offensive outburst against the person, who isn't seeing things their way, the only thing missing was a detailed account how brutally tortured i'll be in hell, with a bright gleam in the eye; thrilled that i should deserve such a fitting fate for my denial of such a holy god, and pointing out fallacies with that, ideal.
and believing a prayer on your knees to some god that's a mere two thousand years old will solve all your problems is any better?
what's the difference between a prayer and a spell...except who receives the credit when it's granted?
Doesn't mention prayer, and besides I don't believe prayer works in that way. Only you can solve your problems, God isn't interventionist in that way.
stunted development
I think there's a valid psychological theory there. Necropolis' post about how everyone they know in magick is from a Christian background but actually wants to burn in Hell... Well, that's surely more than coincidence.
psychological theory?
that a person would rather enjoy their life, risking the possibility of eternal damnation in some fiery pit, being condemned by a book written by men, based from their perceptions of a cruel and brutal god, than serve some god on high, from their knees, denying everything that makes us human?
...really?
Really.
i didn't realize i was stunted in anything...except maybe not understanding your sudden vehmenance against those who choose to place their faith in something, or someone else.
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Or maybe it means they never quite grew up and grew out of the rebelling-against-parents thing? Maybe there's a psychological development theory behind that. I've always mused that people who want to engage in the, often egocentric, wish-fulfilment that lies at the heart of magical systems are less drawn to magick through conscious choice and more through the way they process the world and interpret their world-view. Which, depending upon which side of the divide you stand in the nature vs nurture debate, would date back to their earliest interactions with their parents and the style of nurturing/parental love they experienced.
Most people who start out in magic do so becuase they want something agreed. Alot also start due to alienation from Christianity. I was raised in a Christian house but the Bible stories gave me nightmares and I refused to acknowledge that the gods wouldn't allow me to practice magic, so I can't claim to ever have really been a christian, I came closer to being an athiest.
I do alot of magic but very little spells now a days. Reason being I can more easily go out and get something I want than waste time casting a spell for it, they take equal amounts of energy anyway. What I use magic for these days is enhancement and healing.
The problem here is that the universe puts everyone on equal footing, watrer, grass, people, insect etc.... alive or dead pretty much the same.
Pride and egocentricity are things people give themselves to feel special.
So although the original path to magic is often desire or idocy. Often people who do actually take the time to use it move past that and on to something deeper. There are those who take it to horrible places though.
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There are those who take it to horrible places though.
that sort of applies to anything created by humanity...
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and they all blame a woman for the downfall of all that was good and pure...resulting in punishment for man's love of her and punishing women with painful childbirth and cramping bleeding for daring to, be independent...
what sort of god would desire that for his children?
Precisely the train of thought that led me into Dianic witchcraft. No men allowed, no men welcome, no men EVER! I still prefer women Bible teachers, perhaps because I simply learn better from a woman.
My son just left the house with his last $20 that my mother gave him for a camp he's going to attend next week. He wants to go somewhere with his friends and spend it on something useless.
I told him not to do it; he insisted it was his money, he didn't want to go to camp and didn't care if he had money or not.
After about six or seven minutes of arguing about it, I decided I didn't care if he has money for camp or not. He'll be the one without any spending money.
Maybe it was somewhat the same with God in the Garden of Eden. He gave Adam and Eve EVERYTHING they could possibly ever want or need, yet it wasn't enough. When there was a hint that "pssstt, this tree will give you MORE", Eve couldn't resist and took the fruit. I don't put all the blame on her, Adam had a brain too. He went along with her because God has given women a tremendous gift of influence.
So they made the choice. God told them not to touch that Tree, but they wanted the gift of knowledge. They got it. Knowledge of tilling the soil until their bodies were wracked with weariness just to provide some food for the table; years of famine when the weather didn't cooperate. Knowledge of how much it hurts to have a baby. They didn't get punishment as much as they got knowledge. It just seemed like punishment because they knew they'd screwed up, but didn't want to really blame themselves. And that thought and idea has come down through the generations, that God is cruel and hurtful, punishing people when He doesn't have to.
No, He didn't have to.... they chose to have the 'knowledge'. He gave them, and us, free will.
~Morticia
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and they all blame a woman for the downfall of all that was good and pure...resulting in punishment for man's love of her and punishing women with painful childbirth and cramping bleeding for daring to, be independent...
what sort of god would desire that for his children?
Precisely the train of thought that led me into Dianic witchcraft. No men allowed, no men welcome, no men EVER! I still prefer women Bible teachers, perhaps because I simply learn better from a woman.
My son just left the house with his last $20 that my mother gave him for a camp he's going to attend next week. He wants to go somewhere with his friends and spend it on something useless.
I told him not to do it; he insisted it was his money, he didn't want to go to camp and didn't care if he had money or not.
After about six or seven minutes of arguing about it, I decided I didn't care if he has money for camp or not. He'll be the one without any spending money.
Maybe it was somewhat the same with God in the Garden of Eden. He gave Adam and Eve EVERYTHING they could possibly ever want or need, yet it wasn't enough. When there was a hint that "pssstt, this tree will give you MORE", Eve couldn't resist and took the fruit. I don't put all the blame on her, Adam had a brain too. He went along with her because God has given women a tremendous gift of influence.
So they made the choice. God told them not to touch that Tree, but they wanted the gift of knowledge. They got it. Knowledge of tilling the soil until their bodies were wracked with weariness just to provide some food for the table; years of famine when the weather didn't cooperate. Knowledge of how much it hurts to have a baby. They didn't get punishment as much as they got knowledge. It just seemed like punishment because they knew they'd screwed up, but didn't want to really blame themselves. And that thought and idea has come down through the generations, that God is cruel and hurtful, punishing people when He doesn't have to.
No, He didn't have to.... they chose to have the 'knowledge'. He gave them, and us, free will.
~Morticia
why did god make us so human if he didn't expect us to be human; and then punish us for his imperfect creation, when presented with temptations he allowes?
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and they all blame a woman for the downfall of all that was good and pure...resulting in punishment for man's love of her and punishing women with painful childbirth and cramping bleeding for daring to, be independent...
I don't know what religion that is, but that isn't Christianity :|
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why did (mommy and daddy) make us so human if they didn't expect us to be human; and then punish us for their imperfect creation, when presented with temptations they allow?
Its called being a good parent, I guess. :-)
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and they all blame a woman for the downfall of all that was good and pure...resulting in punishment for man's love of her and punishing women with painful childbirth and cramping bleeding for daring to, be independent...
I don't know what religion that is, but that isn't Christianity :|
several actually...eve's blamed for all misery brought upon eve, resulting in the downfall of utopia, pandora was created to bring misery upon man for utilizing fire, realizing all that's evil into the world...and look at the story of lilith, what happened to her daring to think she could say no to adam, and doing so?
i don't want to get into a feminist debate, i enjoy the company of men, too much;
but most monotheistic based religions do not seem to value females as much as males(name one with an example) and then blame those females that dare to exert any power or influence for the downfall of man from a perfect creation of god...it may not be directly a result of the religion, but more the fault of patriarchial societies, but these societies do use religion for the basis of their...misanthropical like attitude towards the female gender.
they may offer strong females, but were they strong for their clever independance or devotion and loyalty to, a male?
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why did (mommy and daddy) make us so human if they didn't expect us to be human; and then punish us for their imperfect creation, when presented with temptations they allow?
Its called being a good parent, I guess. :-)
i don't know about that...half his angels rebelled, lilith rebelled, eve rebelled...it seems the only one who really ever lived up to his standards was adam...until he loved eve more.
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wondered about it all? You know-your people and my people. Heaven and Hell, good and evil, all that
sort of thing? I mean, why?"
"As I recall," said the angel, stiffly, "there was the rebellion and-"
"Ah, yes. And why did it happen, eh? I mean, it didn't have to, did it?" said Crowley, a manic look
in his eye. "Anyone who could build a universe in six days isn't going to let a little thing like that
happen. Unless they want it to, of course."
"Oh, come on. Be sensible," said Aziraphale, doubtfully.
"That's not good advice," said Crowley. "That's not good advice at all. If you sit down and think
about it sensibly, you come up with some very funny ideas. Like: why make people inquisitive, and then
put some forbidden fruit where they can see it with a big neon finger flashing on and off saying 'THIS IS
IT!'?"
"I don't remember any neon."
"Metaphorically, I mean. I mean, why do that if you really don't want them to eat it, eh? I mean,
maybe you just want to see how it all turns out. Maybe it's all part of a great big ineffable plan. All of it.
You, me, him, everything. Some great big test to see if what you've built all works properly, eh? You
start thinking: it can't be a great cosmic game of chess, it has to be just very complicated Solitaire. And
don't bother to answer. If we could understand, we wouldn't be us. Because it's all-all-"
INEFFABLE, said the figure feeding the ducks.
"Yeah. Right. Thanks."
They watched the tall stranger carefully dispose of the empty bag in a litter bin, and stalk away
across the grass. Then Crowley shook his head.
"What was I saying?" he said.
That there is from a Book called Good Omens. Its very funny. It also has a point. My Daughter is two and so has the emotional and mental development of a two year old which means I am often making sure she is not after lollies or anything that passes her fancy to grab. Adam and Eve had innocent minds, and no real chance for development. SO saying lookee here what I have would have been the same as saying "Chocolate" to my daughter.
BTW if you consider what the apple was supposed to impart upon Eve and Adam, afterwards they were all knowing. And as the bible says "like God" in that respect becuase you cannot understand good and evil unless you also know all the ways inwhich to apply them and why they are good and evil.
Another quote from the book
Current theories on the creation of the Universe state that, if it was created at all and didn't just
start, as it were, unofficially, it came into being between ten and twenty thousand million years ago. By
the same token the earth itself is generally supposed to be about four and a half thousand million years
old.
These dates are incorrect.
Medieval Jewish scholars put the date of the Creation at 3760 B.C. Greek Orthodox theologians put
Creation as far back as 5508 B.C.
These suggestions are also incorrect.
Archbishop James Usher (1580-1656) published Annales Veteris et Novi Testaments in 1654, which
suggested that the Heaven and the Earth were created in 4004 B.C. One of his aides took the calculation
further, and was able to announce triumphantly that the Earth was created on Sunday the 21st of
October, 4004 B.C., at exactly 9:00 A.M., because God liked to get work done early in the morning
while he was feeling fresh.
This too was incorrect. By almost a quarter of an hour.
The whole business with the fossilized dinosaur skeletons was a joke the paleontologists haven't
seen yet.
This proves two things:
Firstly, that God moves in extremely mysterious, not to say, circuitous ways. God does not play
dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from
the perspective of any of the other players, [ie., everybody.] to being involved in an obscure and
complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who
won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.
Secondly, the Earth's a Libra.
The astrological prediction for Libra in the "Your Stars Today" column of the Tadfield Advertiser,
on the day this history begins, read as follows:
LIBRA. 24 September-23 October.
You may be feeling run down and always in the same old daily round Home and family matters
are highlighted and are hanging fire. Avoid unnecessary risks. A friend is important to you. Shelve
major decisions until the way ahead seems clear. You may be vulnerable to a stomach upset today,
so avoid salads. Help could come from an unexpected quarter.
This was perfectly correct on every count except for the bit about the salads.
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several actually...eve's blamed for all misery brought upon eve, resulting in the downfall of utopia, pandora was created to bring misery upon man for utilizing fire, realizing all that's evil into the world...and look at the story of lilith, what happened to her daring to think she could say no to adam, and doing so?
i don't want to get into a feminist debate, i enjoy the company of men, too much;
but most monotheistic based religions do not seem to value females as much as males(name one with an example) and then blame those females that dare to exert any power or influence for the downfall of man from a perfect creation of god...it may not be directly a result of the religion, but more the fault of patriarchial societies, but these societies do use religion for the basis of their...misanthropical like attitude towards the female gender.
they may offer strong females, but were they strong for their clever independance or devotion and loyalty to, a male?
The worship of Ishtar or Inannia although the Holy Protitutes thing is a bit iffy.
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several actually...eve's blamed for all misery brought upon eve, resulting in the downfall of utopia, pandora was created to bring misery upon man for utilizing fire, realizing all that's evil into the world...and look at the story of lilith, what happened to her daring to think she could say no to adam, and doing so?
i don't want to get into a feminist debate, i enjoy the company of men, too much;
but most monotheistic based religions do not seem to value females as much as males(name one with an example) and then blame those females that dare to exert any power or influence for the downfall of man from a perfect creation of god...it may not be directly a result of the religion, but more the fault of patriarchial societies, but these societies do use religion for the basis of their...misanthropical like attitude towards the female gender.
they may offer strong females, but were they strong for their clever independance or devotion and loyalty to, a male?
The worship of Ishtar or Inannia although the Holy Protitutes thing is a bit iffy.
the babylonians weren't monotheistic...neither were the sumerians.
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several actually...eve's blamed for all misery brought upon eve, resulting in the downfall of utopia, pandora was created to bring misery upon man for utilizing fire, realizing all that's evil into the world...and look at the story of lilith, what happened to her daring to think she could say no to adam, and doing so?
i don't want to get into a feminist debate, i enjoy the company of men, too much;
but most monotheistic based religions do not seem to value females as much as males(name one with an example) and then blame those females that dare to exert any power or influence for the downfall of man from a perfect creation of god...it may not be directly a result of the religion, but more the fault of patriarchial societies, but these societies do use religion for the basis of their...misanthropical like attitude towards the female gender.
they may offer strong females, but were they strong for their clever independance or devotion and loyalty to, a male?
The worship of Ishtar or Inannia although the Holy Protitutes thing is a bit iffy.
the babylonians weren't monotheistic...neither were the sumerians.
Still a reigion. You will unlikely find a monotheistic one based ont he fact that woman generally recognize the fact that you need males, while monotheistic religions focus on the male principal and the ability of men to bully or "own" woman into doing what they want.
There has never been discovered a female orientated culture only a couple Matriarchal Societies here and there.
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several actually...eve's blamed for all misery brought upon eve, resulting in the downfall of utopia, pandora was created to bring misery upon man for utilizing fire, realizing all that's evil into the world...and look at the story of lilith, what happened to her daring to think she could say no to adam, and doing so?
i don't want to get into a feminist debate, i enjoy the company of men, too much;
but most monotheistic based religions do not seem to value females as much as males(name one with an example) and then blame those females that dare to exert any power or influence for the downfall of man from a perfect creation of god...it may not be directly a result of the religion, but more the fault of patriarchial societies, but these societies do use religion for the basis of their...misanthropical like attitude towards the female gender.
they may offer strong females, but were they strong for their clever independance or devotion and loyalty to, a male?
The worship of Ishtar or Inannia although the Holy Protitutes thing is a bit iffy.
the babylonians weren't monotheistic...neither were the sumerians.
Still a reigion. You will unlikely find a monotheistic one based ont he fact that woman generally recognize the fact that you need males, while monotheistic religions focus on the male principal and the ability of men to bully or "own" woman into doing what they want.
There has never been discovered a female orientated culture only a couple Matriarchal Societies here and there.
damn greeks, they had to pave the road, didn't they?
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they may offer strong females, but were they strong for their clever independance
A good starting point is the writings of Luke, because he gives an account of the life of Jesus Christ, plus a history of the early church.
From the very beginning, Luke writes things no one would write if the underlying philosophy were one of misogynism and the aim to suppress women. Consider that the first person in the New Testament to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" is a woman (Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, Lk. 1:41). As Jesus begins His ministry, Luke records that it is women who help Him and the apostles (Lk. 8:1-3).
In Luke chapter 10, we read that instead of praising Martha, who is seen doing "womans work," Jesus praises Mary for learning what is truly necessary (vv. 38-42). And, as in all the gospels (Matt. 28:1-10; Mk. 16:9; Jn. 20:11-18), Luke records that women are the first to see the resurrected Jesus (Lk. 24:1-10).
These c;lever and independent women continue to play a vitall role in the early church. When the gospel spreads to Europe, it is Lydia, a woman, who is the first convert there (Acts 16:11-15). And it is a woman, Priscilla, who corrects a powerful, influential gospel preacher (Apollos) in Acts 18:24-28.
Luke is by no means alone. In addition to the resurrection passages noted above, Matthew 1 records the names of three women (besides Mary) in the genealogy of Jesus (Rahab, v. 3; Ruth, v. 5 and Bathsheba, v. 6). Mark has Jesus praising a poor woman for her sacrifice (Mk. 12: 41-44). John records a great philosophical debate by Jesus in which the only other person present is a Samaritan woman (John 4).
Paul makes the following statement: "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahams descendants, heirs according to promise" (Gal. 3:27-29). While some have tried to make too much of this passage, this much is clear: traditionally, the three classes of people who could not receive an inheritance were Gentiles, slaves and women. Paul makes a point of including all of these among the descendants of Abraham and heirs of Christ.
It is Peter who cautions husbands that mistreatment of their wives will keep God from hearing their prayers (1 Pet. 3:7).
Rather than suppress women, the New Testament affords them great honor. They can be children of God without meeting any requirements that men arent required to meet. They will be rewarded on the basis of their faith in Jesus, just as men will be.
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-Book of Mormon
says about ...
What the Bible says about Women's Rights
Genesis 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Isaiah 3:12
As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 14:34-36
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing.
1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands.
perhaps jesus did not intend for the good book to be used as it has for centuries to keep women subservient, nor encouraged those who've elaborated the translations for their own use to have justified cruelities to women...but that still doesn't eliminate the fact that, Some who do follow the christian way of faith, do not perceive women being much more than bearers of children and blame them for the downfall of man, using the bible to support their theory. 0:)
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All that Terry Pratchett stuff, etc.
1.Don't be trite. I'm not a literalist, so take the creation story to be allegory. There are places in the world still where you could go, sit in some mud hut and explain to the village elders - with diagrams and flip charts and whiteboards - astrophysics and astronomy and physics and any other branch of science. Think they'd understand you? So, let's stop pretending that several thousands of years ago the Bible would have been written like a textbook from MIT.
2.What proof do you have that God didn't create the universe? Likewise, what concrete, measurable, irrefutable proof do you have that any of the numerous scientific theories are correct?
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Some who do follow the christian way of faith, do not perceive women being much more than bearers of children and blame them for the downfall of man, using the bible to support their theory. 0:)
I think you'll find that applies equally, perhaps more so, among non-Christians.
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All that Terry Pratchett stuff, etc.
1.Don't be trite. I'm not a literalist, so take the creation story to be allegory. There are places in the world still where you could go, sit in some mud hut and explain to the village elders - with diagrams and flip charts and whiteboards - astrophysics and astronomy and physics and any other branch of science. Think they'd understand you? So, let's stop pretending that several thousands of years ago the Bible would have been written like a textbook from MIT.
2.What proof do you have that God didn't create the universe? Likewise, what concrete, measurable, irrefutable proof do you have that any of the numerous scientific theories are correct?
my issues aren't with god, you've corrected those, quite well...
as for creationism, i enjoy the prehistoric cultures too much to completely disbelieve that evolution is an actuallity, it makes more sense to me...and i do not know exactly how the universe was created, so i won't say the ideal of some supreme being clapping his hands and saying "let there be light" is an impossibility, that'd be silly of me. 0:)
....I do believe if jesus was indeed a person, he was an amazing example of what heightened humanity can lead to...i guess, initially my problem isn't with christianity;
i'm realizing not all of God's followers are...what i've been subjected to, when expressing my witchy beliefs...before this forum, i can agree that the lessons jesus taught, were...a good example of living harmoniously with the self and with the divine, nbut he spread his word in aramaic...how many different cultures translated it, before king james, how can anyone know what is in the bible today is what jesus said verbatim or that those who translated for god, were able to present his message unbiased?
it's the bible that i continue to have problems with...it's just such a basic tenet of the christian faith, that i apologize if it seems i'm, attacking that, rather than a book.
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2.What proof do you have that God didn't create the universe? Likewise, what concrete, measurable, irrefutable proof do you have that any of the numerous scientific theories are correct?
We really wont be able to know what/who made the universe until we get out there more. Though, I do like the idea about parallel universes, but thats a long complicated thing I dont want to get into.
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2.What proof do you have that God didn't create the universe? Likewise, what concrete, measurable, irrefutable proof do you have that any of the numerous scientific theories are correct?
We really wont be able to know what/who made the universe until we get out there more. Though, I do like the idea about parallel universes, but thats a long complicated thing I dont want to get into.
who created parallell universes?
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2.What proof do you have that God didn't create the universe? Likewise, what concrete, measurable, irrefutable proof do you have that any of the numerous scientific theories are correct?
We really wont be able to know what/who made the universe until we get out there more. Though, I do like the idea about parallel universes, but thats a long complicated thing I dont want to get into.
who created parallell universes?
They use the Thread Theory to get into that part.
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thread theory? *looks confused*
we can't even decide who created the universe, perhaps we shouldn't go there?
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Lets not bother to go there.
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Do you mean string and superstring? :|
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I dont know if I wanna tell you judging by how this may turn out.
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No, fire away. I find string theory fascinating. It certainly doesn't negate the existence of God for me, or His creation. Many scientists are coming to the opinion that, as they discover just how complex life the universe and everything really is, it may well be that only God could have coordinated the whole she-bang.
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Well, obviously you have read about String Theory. I do find it fascinating also. Somehow it seems to make sense to me, I dont know why.
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A really interesting perspective:
http://www.web-books.com/GoodPost/Articles/SeeGod.htm
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this may seem...trite, but
who made god?
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:-D
Common question.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c039.html explain it very neatly, better than if I tried to.
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so, when did god first speak to man, and was he the god he is today?
i can agree with the no cause, no existance aspect...what would be gods cause for existing?
or is god just used as a name to define some...causeful existance that has always been?
...in that case how can any belief claim absolute right to...something, that's always been and will always be...that still doesn't explain how the bibical god came to exist...the beginnings of civilization can be archeologically traced, existing thousands of years, before the bible and those civilizations created cultures, with gods, but not all were male or supreme...why did todays interpretation of this purposeful existance choose to present himself, so recently to humanity?
and why did it take him so long to make up some rules?
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It's the "no beginning" part that makes my head hurt. I simply can't conceive of that. I come a bit closer to comprehending "no end".
The way I look at it, I don't understand a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. (For example: algebra. Never understood it, don't want to learn now.)
~Morticia
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It's the "no beginning" part that makes my head hurt. I simply can't conceive of that. I come a bit closer to comprehending "no end".
The way I look at it, I don't understand a lot of things, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. (For example: algebra. Never understood it, don't want to learn now.)
~Morticia
you're right...algebra does make things, more difficult. ;)
i just can't accept something, until i can understand it...and if it's not able to be explained, then how does anyone know, that's how it is?
now i can see why the priest at our church would grow impatient with me? :D
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Here's another thought... If there is one causal god, then perhaps there are other causal beings? These beings could be gods from other cultures. I seem to remember something in the bible saying "God is a jealous God" Could there be others that he doesn't want to compete with?
Empty Void
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Here's another thought... If there is one causal god, then perhaps there are other causal beings? These beings could be gods from other cultures. I seem to remember something in the bible saying "God is a jealous God" Could there be others that he doesn't want to compete with?
Empty Void
i believe that's called polytheism. ;)
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Here's another thought... If there is one causal god, then perhaps there are other causal beings? These beings could be gods from other cultures. I seem to remember something in the bible saying "God is a jealous God" Could there be others that he doesn't want to compete with?
Empty Void
My understanding of "jealous God" is that God is jealous for us to know Him; in fact, the words 'zealous' and 'jealous' may even be interchangeable in another language.
It would be in the same sense that I am very jealous for my children to have a relationship with Jesus Christ. Not 'jealous' as in 'coveting what someone else possesses.'
~Morticia
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I don't know. If he wasn't jealous why would he have had all the priests, people and animals from the heathen nations killed when the Israelites came in and took over an area? Mass genocide of the occupying nation is a common theme in the old testament. Sounds almost like hate to me. Is god capable if hate?
Empty Void
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I don't know. If he wasn't jealous why would he have had all the priests, people and animals from the heathen nations killed when the Israelites came in and took over an area? Mass genocide of the occupying nation is a common theme in the old testament. Sounds almost like hate to me. Is god capable if hate?
Empty Void
God said that the Israelites were His chosen people. He made it possible through miracles for them to keep moving on toward the Promised Land. In doing this, He displayed His greatness, love and continual presence; especially during the times they were getting tired and whiny: "Are we there yet? I'm hungry... I wanna go back. We're just gonna die out here, we shoulda stayed in Egypt", etc."
I suppose some of these miracles involved getting rid of the enemies of His people so they could keep moving on.
~Morticia
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God makes it very clear that sometimes things deteriorate so far that a culture or a people reaches a "point of no return." The remedy is like trying to unscramble an egg. There is just no way back; things have gone too far. The story of the Genesis Flood is a demonstration that He has already done this once on this planet. A good surgeon does not amputate a leg if someone has a severely stubbed toe. But a good surgeon will amputate if the infection is so massive that to refuse to do so would mean the loss of the whole body and person.
R.A. Torrey said of the genocides: "It is appalling that any people should be utterly put to the sword, but it is even more appalling that a society of people should have become so corrupt and debased that such treatment is deemed necessary in the interest of humanity. The Canaanites were a moral cancer threatening the very life of the whole human race. The cancer had to be removed in order to save the body, just as a surgeon inflicts pain and suffering in order to remove a malignant growth in the body."
This is exactly the dilemma God faced as the Israelites were brought back to possess their land. To settle them in the midst of these depraved people was asking for disaster. If the cancer remained, Israel would not survive. For Israel's survival, the Canaanites had to go. Israel would be corrupted by their presence and their influence. She would fall away from the Lord Who has loved her and delivered her.
Those who regard sin lightly and who have no adequate conception of God's holiness will always find insurmountable difficulty in this command of God, but those who have come to see the awfulness of sin, and who have caught some glimpses of the infinite holiness of God and have been made in some measure partakers of that holiness, will, after mature reflection, have no difficulty whatever with this command. It is consciousness of sin in our own hearts and lives that makes us rebel against God's stern dealings with sin.