Monstrous
Apocalypse Soon => Religions, Cults & Sects => Topic started by: Morticia on August 17, 2006, 01:03:51 AM
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It's all about perception.
If we, as women, are willing to believe that men have superiority over us, then they do.
On the other hand, history shows that sometimes men believed women to be evil, corrupt, and deviously plotting to cause men to lust; therefore women were to blame for most of the evils of the world and needed to be punished (oh wait - it was my ex-husband who believed that last part - :|)
Anyway, perhaps Necropolis can find a bit more info in "the Prequel", down below in the Apocolypse section.
~Morticia
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This really doesn't suprise me, it seems anytime in history a female dared to be successful, using her God given womanly wiles to achieve some status in patriarchial societies, she was accused as a witch consorting with devils? :roll:
I didn't think we were that threatening. :wink:
Read the book of Ester
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Read the book of Ester
not anymore, silly;
but once upon a time in certain histories it was better to be livestock than a daughter to be given away to a man who would pay enough. :-o
if i was to be paid, i'd rather have become a courtesean, they could do more being fancy whores than proper women of society.
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I'm not sure what happened to that quote or my post? I replied "Read the Book of Ester" in regards to a post by Jordyn concerning the historical view of women. I'm not sure where the rest of the text came from and to be honest I'm a little confused by its meaning.
The book of Ester shows how a woman who obeyed the Lord saved her entire nation from destruction.
ZRY
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{fixed}
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I'm not sure what happened to that quote or my post? I replied "Read the Book of Ester" in regards to a post by Jordyn concerning the historical view of women. I'm not sure where the rest of the text came from and to be honest I'm a little confused by its meaning.
The book of Ester shows how a woman who obeyed the Lord saved her entire nation from destruction.
ZRY
i didn't say God said that about women...but in general, patriarchial socieities have kept women subdued, accusing them of horrible things if they dared said no, facing various consequences...this isn't exclusive to the christian faith or even secluded in history, many countries still embrace female subjugation, but while we're on the subject...of bibical opinion...
1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Cr 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
is this really what God would want for females, and if so, why give them intelligence?
it's these reasons i will always have problems with the bible...not as the word of God, but because it seems people choose to eliminate the fact that while He may have told them what he wanted for his creations, his words still had to be processed through human minds, why would they be the only one's He would speak to?
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My church follows these verses strictly.
A male Sunday School teacher recently completed a series called "Womens' Role in the Church", and the class came to the conclusion that it would probably be all right for a woman to teach a Sunday School class.
The teacher asked me to fill in for him one Sunday. I knew I was basically his 'test case' to see if the people really believed what they said they believed. They didn't.
Two of the deacons were scurrying around the church like a couple of rats trying to get enough votes from the Board to make me stop.
I found some info on a Messianic Jew site supporting women having active roles in church - that proves you can find whatever you want to believe on the internet.
Jordyn, I very much understand how you feel about this. So do I. I have just made it one of my goals to not let other people force their opinions of the Bible on me. I used this for years as an excuse to stay away from Christianity and Christian people in general.
~Morticia
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but i've not seen much of that attitude in the old testament, women don't seem mentioned as often, but i've seen nothing so far forbidding them to have any, direct association to God. What is it about the new testament and the established churches that seem to take some of this, necessity from women?
in the beginning, God rather seemed to like females. ;)
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It is going to take each of you to do a couple of things if you wish to put this to bed in a Biblical manner. First, look into the context that Paul wrote that letter. It may have been ment for that particular church or needs to be taken in the context in which it was written. I'm not sure of the context and will look into it for my own reasons too. Perhaps we can post our findings in a seperate thread.
The 2nd, and I say this with the utmost Christian love for the both of you, IF those versus mean what it initially appears to mean, then the sin of Pride has come home to roost in your lives. Your pride in your womanhood is causing you to rebel against God's word.
There are still Biblical principals that I struggle with, and probably always will. The best thing that happened to me was a close Brother had the courage to tell me so. I remember being upset and hurt by the comment at first and after a couple of days, I realized why. Not only was I wrong but my pride in it kept me angry at the man who tried to help.
Now I don't know what the results of our research is going to be, but what ever the results, believers must obey.
ZRY
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I won't at this point offer a commentary on the verses in question, instead just ask you the same question I once asked of (an all female) Bible study group in my own church -
"As a Christian woman, do you consider the following to be demeaning, belittling or insulting to your womanhood:
Ministries to the disabled
Ministries to the sick
Ministries to the socially estranged
Ministries to the emotionally impaired
Ministries to prostitutes
Ministries to abused children and women
Ministries to runaways and problem children
Ministries to orphans
Ministries inside women’s prisons
Ministries to the families of prisoners
Ministries to youth
Teaching
Organising an open house and recreation for children and families of your church
Organising outings and trips for the same
Writing ministries
Organising Sunday school for children, youth, students, women
Musical ministries
Personal witnessing
Organising home Bible studies
Outreach to children
Organising visitation teams
Telephone counselling
Writing, producing, directing, acting in theater and drama ministries
Organising Pro-life committees
Organising Pro-decency committees
Organising drug rehabilitation
Pastoral care assistance
Newcomer welcoming and assistance
Hospitality
Food and clothing and transportation
Prayer ministries
Praying
Mobilizing for prayer events
Helping with small groups of prayer
Coordinating prayer chains
Promoting prayer days and weeks and vigils
Mission work
Any of the countless secular jobs that undergird other ministries
The awesome significance of motherhood
Making a home as a full-time wife?"
God created roles for everyone and everyone for roles.
Jordyn, there is nothing anywhere in the Bible, Old Testament or New, "forbidding a woman to have a direct association with God".
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Excellent point, DV.
There is nothing on the list I have not or would not do.
However, I do believe some churches, like mine, take those few verses about women being silent and use them over and above every other verse in the Bible pertaining to women so the men remain in control.
~Morticia
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I won't at this point offer a commentary on the verses in question, instead just ask you the same question I once asked of (an all female) Bible study group in my own church -
"As a Christian woman, do you consider the following to be demeaning, belittling or insulting to your womanhood:
Ministries to the disabled
Ministries to the sick
Ministries to the socially estranged
Ministries to the emotionally impaired
Ministries to prostitutes
Ministries to abused children and women
Ministries to runaways and problem children
Ministries to orphans
Ministries inside women’s prisons
Ministries to the families of prisoners
Ministries to youth
Teaching
Organising an open house and recreation for children and families of your church
Organising outings and trips for the same
Writing ministries
Organising Sunday school for children, youth, students, women
Musical ministries
Personal witnessing
Organising home Bible studies
Outreach to children
Organising visitation teams
Telephone counselling
Writing, producing, directing, acting in theater and drama ministries
Organising Pro-life committees
Organising Pro-decency committees
Organising drug rehabilitation
Pastoral care assistance
Newcomer welcoming and assistance
Hospitality
Food and clothing and transportation
Prayer ministries
Praying
Mobilizing for prayer events
Helping with small groups of prayer
Coordinating prayer chains
Promoting prayer days and weeks and vigils
Mission work
Any of the countless secular jobs that undergird other ministries
The awesome significance of motherhood
Making a home as a full-time wife?"
God created roles for everyone and everyone for roles.
Jordyn, there is nothing anywhere in the Bible, Old Testament or New, "forbidding a woman to have a direct association with God".
i've come to understand that on several levels...but that doesn't mean that those who push Him on people are aware of what He feels for females...reading the bible has helped me alot actually...God is not the enemy, those who do not understand him, but choose to focus more on his words and the men who transposed them...are the enemy of those who would seek His guidance.
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Taking fledgling steps into Christianity is not easy. If it was, there would be so many more of us! :-)
It is difficult, as Zak pointed out, and almost goes against the grain to place your faith in "a book". It isn't helped by seeing some people who claim to be, and in some instances genuinely believe they are, "Christian" when in fact they are at best "Churchian"... But God's special relationship, one on one, is contained within His Word. His guidance is His Word. Because others are in error in their interpretation or application, does not make the Word wrong.
The Bible is a complex document; it is the Unknowable expressed in shapes on paper that relate to concepts and sounds in our heads. Persevere, constantly question, test the ideas in your heart. But always remember that we are directed to accept the Word with humility of mind. God may reason with us (Isiah 1:18), but He does not negotiate. There is no middle way, no compromise; only unconditional surrender to the gospel of saving grace. He gives; we accept. It is all of God's free grace in Christ. Therefore, a spirit of childlike acceptance and an attitude of happy meekness are the way in which to receive the Word. Many people talk about "wrestling" with the Word or a with a particular doctrine of Scripture, when what they are really doing is resisting it, as they try to find a way round accepting teaching that has rubbed them up the wrong way. I am the first to admit that there are difficult points of interpretation at various places in Scripture. But by and large, contentiousness is mostly evident on the main points of revealed truth as these cut across what people actually want to do in their lives.
James tells us to "humbly accept the Word planted in you, which can save you" (James 1:21)
The Word is addressed to your heart about your deepest commitments. He is not providing us with an entertaining story. Neither is He providing us with some useful information, text book style. He gives us the Word of life to be assimilated. It is a life-giving Word to judge "the thoughts and attitudes of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12)
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I say this with the utmost Christian love for the both of you, IF those versus mean what it initially appears to mean, then the sin of Pride has come home to roost in your lives. Your pride in your womanhood is causing you to rebel against God's word.
ZRY
Thanks ZRY. I had already thought of this, but thought it might be the sin of rebellion. Maybe it's both. I tend to be a teeny bit stubborn sometimes.
~Morticia
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I say this with the utmost Christian love for the both of you, IF those versus mean what it initially appears to mean, then the sin of Pride has come home to roost in your lives. Your pride in your womanhood is causing you to rebel against God's word.
ZRY
Thanks ZRY. I had already thought of this, but thought it might be the sin of rebellion. Maybe it's both. I tend to be a teeny bit stubborn sometimes.
~Morticia
so what chapter contains the seven sins, that would validate them as the word of God?
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The "Seven Deadly Sins" are not catalogued as such in the Bible, however Proverbs 6:16-19 declares: "There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: (1) haughty eyes, (2) a lying tongue, (3) hands that shed innocent blood, (4) a heart that devises wicked schemes, (5) feet that are quick to rush into evil, (6) a false witness who pours out lies, and (7) a man who stirs up dissension among brothers."
For the individual references to the "Deadly Sins":
1. LUST: "For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished. It is a devastating fire that destroys to hell. It would wipe out everything I own." (Job 31:11-12)
2. GLUTTONY: "Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags." (Proverbs 23:20-21) "He who keeps the law is a discerning son, but a companion of gluttons disgraces his father." (Proverbs 28:7)
3. AVARICE: "Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." (Luke 12:15)
4. SLOTH: "He also that is slack in his work Is brother to him that is a destroyer." (Proverbs 18:9)
5. PRIDE: "Likewise, ye younger, be subject unto the elder. Yea, all of you gird yourselves with humility, to serve one another: for God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble." (1 Peter 5:5)
6. ANGER: "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and railing, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, even as God also in Christ forgave you. " (Ephesians 4:31-2)
7: ENVY: "Let us walk becomingly, as in the day; not in revelling and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and jealousy. " (Romans 13:13)
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Morticia, I see you were researching your Jewish Roots..?
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The "Seven Deadly Sins" are not catalogued as such in the Bible, however Proverbs 6:16-19 declares: "There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: (1) haughty eyes, (2) a lying tongue, (3) hands that shed innocent blood, (4) a heart that devises wicked schemes, (5) feet that are quick to rush into evil, (6) a false witness who pours out lies, and (7) a man who stirs up dissension among brothers."
For the individual references to the "Deadly Sins":
1. LUST: "For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished. It is a devastating fire that destroys to hell. It would wipe out everything I own." (Job 31:11-12)
2. GLUTTONY: Proverbs 23:20-21 "Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags." (Proverbs 23:20-21) "He who keeps the law is a discerning son, but a companion of gluttons disgraces his father." (Proverbs 28:7)
3. AVARICE: "Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." (Luke 12:15)
4. SLOTH: "He also that is slack in his work Is brother to him that is a destroyer." (Proverbs 18:9)
5. PRIDE: "Likewise, ye younger, be subject unto the elder. Yea, all of you gird yourselves with humility, to serve one another: for God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble." (1 Peter 5:5)
6. ANGER: "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and railing, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, even as God also in Christ forgave you. " (Ephesians 4:31-2)
7: ENVY: "Let us walk becomingly, as in the day; not in revelling and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and jealousy. " (Romans 13:13)
those make absolute sense, however
PRIDE: "Likewise, ye younger, be subject unto the elder. Yea, all of you gird yourselves with humility, to serve one another: for God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble." (1 Peter 5:5)
how is it pride in womanhood to question the true intentions of statements concerning them? I'm not contesting the bible is the word of God, but why is it wrong of me to question those who interpreted his words and wrote them down for the world to read?
if God intended us to serve in silence, he would not have given us mouths or minds to use them with. :P
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Okay. I've put this through the wringer, and dug out as many references and commentaries as I could find. I've even telephoned Israel to speak to one of my good Messianic Jew friends for his input on the synagogues and early apostolic churches. I am rethinking how previously I might have interpreted these passages. Here's our thoughts:
The early Christians were, effectively, Messianic Jews joined by Gentiles. Their churches would have been run as were the synagogues - the men traditionally sit on one side, and the women traditionally sit on the other. The Gentile women would have no knowledge or understanding of the etiquette of the synagogue, and would call out from their side of the congregation to their husbands to verify questions. This could be why Paul said they should ask their husbands at home and not speak out, because they were interrupting his sermons! But there may be even more...
Do you recall the post about Onan I made? In which I pointed out the socio-historical context, whereby the early Christians were looked down upon for treating their wives and women as equals? We know from contemporary writings that society had a generally negative attitude towards women and both Jews and Greeks believed women should be limited to the domestic roles of wife and mother and treated them pretty much as chattels. Despite this Jesus had a very positive attitude towards them; for example:
1.He accepted and affirmed women who were neglected by society and declared them people of value.
2.He healed women who were considered ritually unclean and forgave women guilty of sexual sin.
3.He both taught women and included them amongst his followers.
4.In his teaching they are often used as examples of people living a life of faith.
5.Although women were not generally educated at the time of Jesus he allowed them to sit at his feet - which was not an insult, but a great compliment: it was the traditional posture of a disciple.
Paul is a man who stands astride both the Old and the New Testament - he was a Jewish Pharisee! In the fledgling apostolic church, he was able to understand the cultural sensitivities and peculiarities of both the Jew and the Gentile. He faced very real trials - and severe beatings, even imprisonment - as he sought to establish Christ's church. We know from the NT that he was very clever - and could talk people around to his way of thinking. but he still needed to be sensitive to the opinions of society whilst trying to establish the new Christian faith. Paul's letters to the young churches would have been written in response to real issues facing them at the time. When Paul writes about women he is obviously responding to a situation in the "there and then" about their role and place in the new church structures.
Turning to a text on feminist theology, I would like you to read this:
It seems Paul was giving instructions to the Church which, although on the surface it looks like it denies women the right to teach and have spiritual leadership in the Church, now looks more like Paul was actually empowering women and giving them a status denied to them by society. Despite the fact that women were not held in high regard Paul taught that they were equal with men (Galatians 3:28). Far from denying women the right to have spiritual leadership Paul in fact wants women to be educated first before this happens (1 Timothy 2:11-15). Until such time Paul sets out some basic rules which will enable women to learn ("A women should learn in quietness and in full submission"). Elsewhere in the New Testament Paul acknowledges that women can have (and are having), a spiritual input into "services". In a letter to the church at Corinth he writes, "And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head..." (1 Corinthians 11:5). Notice he does not say women should not prophesy (or preach/teach) in Church services but only that they should have their head covered when they do. Thus even Paul acknowledges and allows that women should exercise spiritual leadership in Church.
The passage from Galatians, incidentally, reads: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal 3:28)
I'm certainly swayed towards this new understanding... Paul is, as I told you, my guiding light among the apostles, and knowing him as I like to think I do through his writings and his life, this does make more sense.
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Thank you. I appreciate your research very much.
The church I attend has two men in particular who take literally the verses that women are to be silent and never presume to instruct a man. No one stands up to them, so they are pretty controlling as far as our church services go.
~Morticia
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Thank you. I appreciate your research very much.
The church I attend has two men in particular who take literally the verses that women are to be silent and never presume to instruct a man. No one stands up to them, so they are pretty controlling as far as our church services go.
~Morticia
it's not only those two men...sadly.
When we got into our first house together, it was a nice place, but had an icky feeling, we were going through, cleaning off some dust and found the most frightful book. It was written using key versus as those presented here, justifying that women had no rights unless given to them by a man, even going so far as to say if the husband told her to murder, she would have to murder or be damned for not obeying her husband, that the commandments in the bible did not apply to her, that her husband is as God, as God is to him. :-o
...as i've stated before, i don't blame this view towards God, Jesus, or even directly the bible, but people do use it for such horrible justifications of personal hates.
now that it's been explained, in a most intelligent manner...i guess i owe Paul and apology? ;)
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There is one school of thought that most doctrinal error can either come from or is encouraged by Satan. He knows his Scripture - better, even, than I do :wink:
Someone once pointed out that if women can be persuaded that Christianity is misogynistic, then Satan will have successfully reduced our numbers by around 50%...
Back to Paul, briefly. I just re-read Acts, which tells of the trials and tribulations he went through to establish the church, and was reminded that he spent 18 months in Corinth, a vast city, where he converted many orthodox Jews to Christianity. He actually set up the fledgling church in the building immediately adjoing the orthodox Jewish synagogue in "the house of a certain man named Titus Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue. And Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized" (Act 18:7-8)
Under these circumstances, you can see that Paul would have been treading very carefully on the cultural issues to ensure that the Jews would venture into and stay in his "synagogue" to hear his Good News.
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Thanks for your input DV, you may have just answered a question I had on having a woman pastor.
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There is one school of thought that most doctrinal error can either come from or is encouraged by Satan. He knows his Scripture - better, even, than I do :wink:
Someone once pointed out that if women can be persuaded that Christianity is misogynistic, then Satan will have successfully reduced our numbers by around 50%...
Absolutely, this is satan's plan. I have no doubt that these are the reasons that some of the groups such as Dianic witches came about. It is 'women only', NO exceptions, and being witches, we didn't even believe satan existed.
It's really very simple - almost everyone wants to 'belong' somewhere.
~Morticia