Monstrous

Apocalypse Soon => Religions, Cults & Sects => Topic started by: Daemonin on November 09, 2008, 06:15:15 pm

Title: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Daemonin on November 09, 2008, 06:15:15 pm
In Christian faith, God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good.  He is a perfect, benevolent God.

Or is He?

Evil exists in the universe.  If God is all-powerful, why does Evil exist?  If He allows Evil to exist, then he cannot be all-good, right?  Or, maybe He is all-good, but can do nothing about Evil, but then he is not all-powerful. 

So... Why does Evil exist?

Do discuss your feelings on the topic.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Regina Terra on November 09, 2008, 07:13:35 pm
No idea, lol. Humans are flawed, so our world & religions are just as flawed.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Zodiac on November 10, 2008, 02:49:27 am
Pretty simple actually. Evil exists to test people. It is when things get to there worst that people show their best. When everything is happy and fine, good means nothing. With out one..the other is meaningless. And of course you would have to define evil..You would have to tell me what evil is. Personally Evil is the byproduct of change I think. Or maybe it's the other way around. Because when  evil wins, everything changes..people die, things burn down and insanity and confusion win the day..but when good wins, nothing changes and the status is maintained. People still go to work and don't have to be worried about being gunned down by a maniac cab driver roaming the streets in broad daylight.

Evil makes Good mean something, and the two of them define what one another are. What they are to each individual though is another story. Each person has a sense of Good and Evil, but it can vary from person to person. Ultimately we all have to decide for ourselves what they are.

Now the "Greater Good" Is something that everybody can agree on is for the better. Like..say in WW2, when Truman had to drop the bomb, his advisers told him it would cost a million American lives to invade Japan, or they could use the new weapon. The greater good always means to do the lesser of two evils. But again it is all a matter of how you see it, and who the good benefits in the end.

Why evil...why not? As for God...well, I think its just a big joke to him. He likes to watch people squirm alittle bit In their own reality, to become selfish and scream "Why me" When they don't realize how good people have it, Yeah I think it would be funny to watch sometimes. But I highly doubt that "the all loving God" is a reality, more along the lines of a human made myth. I am sure some things tick him off too, so instead of fixing things, if people refuse to get along he will just leave them to the situation they created for themselves, and deserve. The world isnt that small...If somebody really hated something, don't you think you would just get up and leave? People get the world they deserve.

Z
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: leshy on November 10, 2008, 03:32:42 am
I do have a strong faith in God. I believe that we were all created with purpose and that He has a plan for all of us. I do not believe that we were created to be puppets, we were given free will, and since we are human and are not perfect, we sin. Sin causes evil or is evil, however you want to look at it. I believe that it is each individuals responsibility to utilize their free will to take responsibility for their own lives and actions, and to live up to their fullest potential to the best of their ability and to use that free will in a positive manner. Sin and evil are facts of life, they happen. It is our responsibility to do the best we can with what we are given and not sin. When we do it is our responsibility to be remorseful and learn from our actions so we don't make the same mistakes.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on November 10, 2008, 04:06:45 am
Finally a thread where I can point my devilish, simian finger in Jehovah's face and hold him accountable for all the evil that exists in this world!
Daemonin, honey, you made Yule come early for this disgusting little heathen :laugh:

Now where do I start?
Oh, wait, I don't have to do ANYTHING! Someone's already done it for me!

http://www.evilbible.com/

This website is a selection of all the nasty, disgusting, horrific things that take place on the bible. Want some examples? I don't care if you don't want examples, I'm gonna give 'em anyway.

God sure does love those non-Israelite pagans:
Exodus 22:18 "Thou shalt not allow a witch to live."

OH! Here's a good one...After God mandated that the Israelites commit a genocide against the Midianites (a tribe who disliked the Israelites because the Israelites lived on Midianite state land without paying taxes) Moses decides how to divvy up the goods amongst all his nasty barbaric little cronies:
Numbers 31:17 - "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

God sure does love kids!:
Proverbs 23:13-14 - "Do not withhold discipline from a child. If you beat him with a rod, he will not die. If you beat him with the rod, you will save his life from Sheol."
Guess that explains the years of violent, traumatic physical abuse my Christian father inflicted on me, huh?

All-loving, all-forgiving God huh? WRONG:
Deuteronomy 13:5 - "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..."

Guess all that arguing about whether or not evil comes from God or man is moot, huh?:
Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD do all these things."
Amos 3:6 - "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
Lamentations 3:38 - "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

God really had a hard-on for genocide. Here's another beauty:
Deuteronomy 2:34 - "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."

and another:
Joshua 6:21 - "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."

...and another!
Psalms 58:10 - "The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked."

Finally, a kernal of sanity amidst the lunacy:
Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 - "For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place, all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again."
______________________________________________________________________


Now, don't get on me for not respecting God. Personally, I think he's a Grade-A badass, and I'd be happy to knock back a few bottles of whisky with him. I mean, from Samson, the dreadlock-sporting barbarian who slaughtered an entire army with the jawbone of a wild donkey, to Elisha, who could summon angry momma bears when he got pissed, God has a whole plethora of awesome Conan the Barbarian-style followers. Hell, the Bible is one of the greatest fantasy epics of all time, and it's one of my favorite things to read when I'm sittin' on the crapper. But guess what? This is NOT the kind of stuff people should base their lives on! It's ABSOLUTELY REPUGNANT. ANY PERSON WHO BASES THEIR LIVES ON THIS RUBBISH IS SUPPORTING GROTESQUE CRUELTIES AND ABOMINATIONS THAT OFFEND THE SENSIBILITIES OF ANY SANE, RATIONAL PERSON.

Wow, glad I got that out of my system.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Moloch on November 10, 2008, 05:19:45 am
Ok, it's official, I am envious of the Kreep. Not only did he beat me to this, but he did it better than I could have. Congratulations, Kreep, you won this one!

I just realized that this could be considered off-topic, so, to alleviate any confusion, I'm going to explain that I agree with The Kreep on this one, lock, stock, and barrel. He didn't say a single syllable that I disagree with.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on November 10, 2008, 05:34:53 am
Thank you very much, Moloch. I greatly appreciate it. :-D

Now, to add something:
The only historical evidence that the Jews ever worshipped a benevolent God comes from a small cult dedicated to a Nazarene anarchist rabbi that went by the name of Yeshua ben Yusef, more commonly known by the Greek name Jesus. There are very few objective historical documents to prove he ever existed at all, since Israel was going through a time of strife when he popped up, and he wasn't the only "messiah" to come forth and gather a congregation.

Other than that, ancient Jewish history is filled with them squatting on land that isn't theirs and refusing to pay taxes, killing people and stealing their property, and raping foreign women just so that their family lines could be passed on throughout the various nations, and they invented a God to justify all this insanity.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Moloch on November 10, 2008, 05:39:54 am
You know, here's a bit of wisdom from me: "Truth is like a thistle. If you grasp it lightly, it will hurt you, To hold Truth, you must grasp it firmly, so that the spines cannot have time to pierce the flesh of your hand. Only in this way can Truth be yours without harming you."

Now, I hope someone here can figure out why I posted that... otherwise I've badly overestimated the intelligence of at least two of you.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Daemonin on November 10, 2008, 05:43:07 am
That is a very nice look into this, actually.  

I will say right now, though:  This can get controversial.  To those that wish to respond, do not make this a fight, just do some civilized debate.

So, there is the argument that Evil exists to test us and to make us appreciate Good more, then also the argument that God is not benevolent in the slightest and that people just made up this God to justify their horrible actions.

If I am wrong, correct me.  

Don't let the thread go to Hell in a hand-basket :roll:
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on November 10, 2008, 06:08:19 am
God is not benevolent in the slightest and that people just made up this God to justify their horrible actions.

DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!

*<:) *<:) *<:)
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: leshy on November 10, 2008, 06:23:38 am
At the expense of sounding completely unintelligent Moloch, I don't know exactly what that is supposed to mean. If you were to firmly grasp a thistle, or truth, your hand would probably be pierced for sure, but if that truth were truly important to someone it would be worth the blood, yes?
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Moloch on November 10, 2008, 06:50:10 am
Obviously you've never had to pull a thistle out of the ground, Leshy.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Raziel on November 10, 2008, 07:02:47 am
Hmm............. still.

i like my jesus friend that follows me around telling me not to do stuff. :-D
He's like the only one that doesn't get mad when i ignore him! ^_^


Btw kreep-o? can i borrow some of this stuff in case someone( crazy old ex-elementary christian teacher) tries to get me to "embrace" teh faith? PWease!!???//
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on November 10, 2008, 07:05:34 am
Go right ahead, Raz.
Hell, just go to that site and print a few pages out of it to carry around with you. I'm sure they'll come in handy *<:)
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Regina Terra on November 10, 2008, 08:45:50 am
No offense, but you all are ridiculous. IF God does exist, then he is a higher being beyond our comprehension. To try & pin mere human words & concepts on him such as good & evil, benevolent & otherwise, is RIDICULOUS.

It's obvious that he is so far above us that we can't fully grasp all of him, so we invented mere words to try, but being human, & flawed, we ailed in some point. Creating this conundrum.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Moloch on November 10, 2008, 09:05:21 am
Regina, you really have no idea what Kreepy did here do you? He made a valid point, and he did it intelligently - and he said the exact same thing you did, only in different words.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Loki on November 10, 2008, 09:46:19 am
Endless discussion about the origin of Good and Evil, the proof or denial for god's existence, ...., just makes me remind you the very importance of death and suffering for the evolution of everyone soul and the collective race.

How do you imagine a world where no none die, no one suffers, everyone can eat plenty of food ....

Technologically possible but practically boring.  This is the 'Brave New World' from A. Huxley.

Personally, I cant even imagine I will live until 80 years old in the same old carcass ... at this time, I will have the ability to recycle my organs and live endlessly ...

LK


Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Moloch on November 10, 2008, 09:54:05 am
So true, who wants to live forever? After a few milennia, it would become boring. Even the residents of the city of Diaspar in Arthur C. Clarke's "The City and the Stars" had become jaded after a billion years of something similar to what Loki describes. They even had every conceivable form of entertainment too, and lifespans were limited to only one thousand years at that!
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Regina Terra on November 10, 2008, 01:06:42 pm
I'm gonna make a thread to debate this so this one can get  :focus:
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on November 10, 2008, 01:14:55 pm
No offense, but you all are ridiculous. IF God does exist, then he is a higher being beyond our comprehension. To try & pin mere human words & concepts on him such as good & evil, benevolent & otherwise, is RIDICULOUS.

It's obvious that he is so far above us that we can't fully grasp all of him, so we invented mere words to try, but being human, & flawed, we ailed in some point. Creating this conundrum.


Yeah, ummm, Regina...Moloch was right. I said the exact same thing as you, I just went about it in a different way.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Regina Terra on November 10, 2008, 01:23:07 pm
Meh, that's not what I got from reading it. :-P
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: blow_fly on November 15, 2008, 03:20:42 am
Quote
No offense, but you all are ridiculous. IF God does exist, then he is a higher being beyond our comprehension. To try & pin mere human words & concepts on him such as good & evil, benevolent & otherwise, is RIDICULOUS.

It's obvious that he is so far above us that we can't fully grasp all of him, so we invented mere words to try, but being human, & flawed, we ailed in some point. Creating this conundrum.



In that case, his existence matters not in the slightest to me and he is of no understandable interest whatsoever.  What's the point of asking questions about a God too remote for us to relate to?
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Regina Terra on November 15, 2008, 07:39:53 am
It's not that any god is too remote, just beyond our comprehension. Can a crab fully comprehend the entirety of the ocean? & all he life their in? No, but it doesn't mean it isn't a part of it, & has a role to play, no matter how small.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: blow_fly on November 17, 2008, 06:26:56 am
I have to disagree with that argument. As a sentient species, we have every right to explore certain concepts for ourselves and if these concepts prove to be impossible to comprehend due either to their immense complexity or more prosaically, a lack of concrete evidence to support its validity, we would be more than justfied in recognising its irrelavence  to our dialy lives. After all, why pursue a subject that we have not the slightest hope of understanding or influencing?
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Regina Terra on November 17, 2008, 07:34:15 am
Exactly, we can't comprehend why our gods do certain things, so we call it good or evil, "God does everything for a reason, even murdering your family, my child." then just chuck it over our shoulders & move on with our lives.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: blow_fly on November 18, 2008, 04:14:00 am
Who's to say that God isn't a deeply irrational and violent being much like us?
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Mr. Kreepy on November 18, 2008, 04:22:30 am
Of course God is irrational and violent.
God is that way because humans are that way. All of our creations bear our mark.

Now, don't anyone take this to mean that I don't believe in a Higher Power. Quite the contrary..I am a firm believer in a God, however I don't ever claim that this is anything more than belief. There's no way of knowing for certain no matter how solid the evidence is, and I'm comfortable with seeing things my way without the compulsion to constantly justify and prove my beliefs on the matter.
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: blow_fly on November 19, 2008, 12:25:40 am
Now, as party that is genuinely curious about your spiritual beliefs rather than as one attempting to act on an ulterior motive, I'd like to ask you to elaborate on t the role that your conception of ''God'' plays in your waking reality according to your convictions. Do you belief that ''he'' or ''she'' or ''it'' has a significant impact on the direction that creation is headed in?
Title: Re: Evil and God, God and Evil
Post by: Loki on November 19, 2008, 04:46:20 am
I personally stick to a Buddhist vision of the existence where our souls are going through endless cycles of reincarnations into various forms and dimensions until we reach enlightenment and merge with the universe.  Such beliefs tolerate the existence of creatures such as monsters, elements and gods/demons.