Monstrous

Apocalypse Soon => Religions, Cults & Sects => Topic started by: Muerte on December 21, 2009, 09:40:46 am

Title: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Muerte on December 21, 2009, 09:40:46 am
  OK everyone, here is the deal.  God told Noah to build the Ark and collect two of every animal (one Male one Female) because God was going to cleans the earth of Sin.  Now those on the Boat were Noah his Wife, Sons, and their Wives.  After the flood they were the only humans left, everyone else died.  So if they were the only ones left, and the Flood was initiated because of sin was it worth it?  We still have Sin do we not, hell, not long after the flood there was Sin.  So what does that say about God's chosen family?

  Discuss, Debate, and Vent my freind, I now turn the floor over to you.




  (Yes I know there are a few holes up there, but is that's the point, I want to get you all talking so do it.)
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Dreamer on January 13, 2010, 09:15:31 pm
Javeh? You mean Yahweh. Cause that's how we say it English too. 

According to the Qur'an, the people who were pious and followers of Noah and their family only did go with him,
except many other people including Noah's wife and his eldest Son who were disbelievers. Not to forget the couple of every animal.

(I think It's the Atlantis! Who think this too?)

Earth is now drowned under the water.

This is Noah's supplication to God.

“My Lord!  Leave not one of the disbelievers on the earth.  If you leave them, they will mislead Your slaves and they will beget none but wicked disbelievers.” (Quran 71:27)

Where the position of "Son" differs in Islam as it is written as "Slaves"

"3ebada" which means worships in Islam, but actually a variant of the word "Slave" or "3abeed" in Arabic.


(((Some alteration you think? Same goes to prophet Lot story)))
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: matthew321 on January 14, 2010, 12:33:48 pm
Now here is something to wrap your mind around. If he was supposed to get every animal on the 300 cubit boat. (Is that right?)
then what about mythical creatures? Such as dragons in particular. Or perhaps any animal he could get in an egg form, which would of made it easier to fit on the ship. (assuming the animals could survive without parents) Perhaps creatures are mythical because they decided to leave them behind and only the people with Noah remember them. (creatures of mythology existed before mythology I assume) We also have to consider animals that were not extinct then such as doe- doe's (had to spell it like that for pronunciation) I assume that he didn't have to worry about animals that can live under water. Now what I want to know is what about plants? wouldn't they die from all this water (supposed 40 days and nights). So did the water carry seeds?

Now I think that perhaps it was an ice age before the flood and god decided to start the next global warming cycle of earth  which would make it warm then after a thousand years it gets colder then warmer, etc. I think this was a planned event or a idea conveniently timed.

That is my two cents, very interesting.
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Muerte on January 14, 2010, 02:12:26 pm
  So far so good, everyone has brought up some intresting points.  I find it gratifying that I do not, for once, have to steer a discussion.  Keep going, let's see what transpires.  But what I was getting at was that the bible states this.


   1. The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven [a] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

  Taken from this site.

  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+7&version=NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+7&version=NIV)


  According to this, we would all have descended from Noah and his family.  Does that mean we are all inbred??  (yes there is more to this thread than that, but I can never resist a jibe)
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: onishadowolf on January 14, 2010, 04:34:10 pm
No, we're not all descended from Noah. Because the great flood only covered the Middle East area. The reason they say the whole world, is because the Middle East was the whole world to them. There is'nt enough water on Earth to cover all landmasses completely. That is including underground water and glaciers and ice caps and rivers and lakes. Now why did that area flood and what happened to the Nephillim?
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Muerte on January 14, 2010, 08:03:09 pm
  Then according to the Bible, everyone of Middle Easter Decent were inbred up to a point?  Just trying to understand this whole bible thing.   <^>
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: rave phillaphia on January 15, 2010, 02:21:34 pm
It is just a story... It never happened that way. This story is similar to other stories in the middle east and by the early tribes that spoke Hebrew they adopted these stories from the Sumerians and Canaanites. It is the sad sad truth of the matter... The entirety of the earth cannot be flooded because even if all the polar ice melted and all the ground water and land fresh water were combined and the precipitation in the sky it still wouldn't be enough water to even attempt to reach some of these areas of the world, let alone be able to flood the mountains. I know it is a sad story to pop everyones bubble but I have researched this topic way too much and well it came to be a dissapointment.

But anywho besides that rant. The original stories (Gilgamesh is a starting point with Uta Napistim, but there are eariler stories one with Atra-Hasis) say that the people on the earth were too loud so they flooded them out to lower the population. In Uta-Napistim it said he brought his family and livestock with him, it doesn't say every animal two of a kind. So the story of Noah is an exagerrated fish-tale (haha get it?) of these eariler stories.

And one more thing almost every culture on the planet has a flood story. Wonder why? Because many early cultures relied heavily on the rains and the floods of rivers for agricultural production! TA DA!!! So when they get too much rain and it causes a great flood they tell a story about why the God(s) are punishing them. Woot!

So loudness became sin when it was rewritten in the Babylonian times right before the Babylonian exile and there we have it. God floods the earth because of sin. Also in some stories God floods the earth because of the 'sons of light' mateing with the 'daughters of man' creating the giants, abnormal spirits, etc... that reeked havoc upon the earth. If you would like I can post my paper I did last semester for Climate change on here.
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Muerte on January 15, 2010, 03:17:41 pm
  Now I wounder why the bible (or rather those who wrote it) would adopt another's story and claim it as their own, with a few modifications of course.  Is there any evidence of a mass flood in the middle Easter Region in the B.C time frame?


 
Quote
(Gilgamesh is a starting point with Uta Napistim, but there are eariler stories one with Atra-Hasis)

  Was wondering who would bring this little tidbit up, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Epic of Gilgamesh supposed to be one of the first books written?
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Polaris on January 15, 2010, 06:22:31 pm
It was also the time of Cesair, daughter of Bith, Granddaughter of Noah, who refused her a place on the Ark. She took her followers and sailed to Ire however, she took with her only 3 men and 50 women. The first man, Ladra was killed due to too many women wanting to balance the population  :wink:. Bith seperated himself from the group with a band of followers, while Fiontann escaped to Tul Tuinde, or the Hill of the Wave.

Although the rest perished in the biblical flood, Fiontann survived by transforming himself into a salmon, then an eagle and eventually regained his human form. Maybe it's possible that other people of the time used magic to survive the 40 day flood, therefore the bible would be correct in saying that no men who did not follow Noah were wiped from the face of the earth during this time.
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: onishadowolf on January 16, 2010, 06:32:06 am
The area that flooded was a basin, where a city and a few villages were. A river changed course or lake broke it's borders, flooding into
this basin, thus turning it into a flood basin after many generations of not being one. There was a merchant who shipped goods to other cities using the waterways. He had a monopoly on the shipping of barges of goods, he saw the signs of the flood and set about outfitting his fleet of barges to save his family and close friends, and livilehood. 
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: onishadowolf on January 16, 2010, 06:50:29 am
The reason this story or stories like it spread like wildfire to other cultures. Is because each culture lived through the story by making the same mistake of estabilishing in a flood basin. It's fertile ground, great for farming and villages and cities usually spring up nearby. So there you have it. And we still haven't learned, because look at New Orleans and St. Louis.
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Dreamer on January 17, 2010, 09:32:49 am
OLO! Damn.

What I have to say here too.

What I want to know what is the different between Clean and Unclean?

Are Clean animals are like Domestic animals and Herbivores and vice versa?
What about insects and other things?

Also, I heard this from my father which he took from his uncles and his uncles father and goes on.

"Noah had a cousin, he is so big that his leg stretched to the deepest of the sea, his food was the wales of the deep seas. As Noah was ordered by God to make an Ark, so to fit many animals, he had to get one of the largest tree to carve it and make into a boat fit enough for all the animals. So he Noah sent his cousin, and said to him that this going to be a long voyage a 3 days road to the deepest sea, the cousin said on what he will eat on the way. Noah made three Breads, one for the voyage, one at the time of arrival at the tree and the last for coming back. So, his cousin set into that journey, even the deepest of sea was reaching up to his neck. He traveled about a day and so, he reached to the giant tree, he just pulled from it's roots, and brought it back. What revitalized him was the bread, a one single bread was like a huge wale meal.
He returned the tree back and Noah and his followers craved the tree into the ship"

And that's how I heard it.

Anything else?


Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: jordyn on January 17, 2010, 03:33:49 pm
clean animals are those that are herbivores, creatures that would eat the same things we do, unclean are carrion feeders, fish without scales, cloven hoofs etc...the bible it seems has a rather extensive list as to what can and can't be eaten.

you do not eat dead things that live off off death and garbage, seems like pretty basic wisdom to me, besides a vulture roast with a side of shrimp just sounds wrong to me.
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Polaris on January 17, 2010, 08:52:45 pm
Sin seems to be a more personal thing, what we feel guilty for or what others are ashamed of us for is usually what is classed as 'sin'. The meaning has changed over time because the idea of sin is such a personal one and like most personal beliefs it is influenced by culture, upbringing and experience.

The bible uses symbolism to 'teach'. It uses historical contexts, terms and ideas because otherwise its general 'message' wouldn't be so easily interpreted by the public, who the writers of the bible sought to influence. This also partly explains why, in modern times, the bible is becoming more and more misinterpreted.

So maybe a more fitting question would be, what does the story symbolise? Rather than, how could this be possible?

As to the original question. What this could possibly say about God's chosen family is that none is without sin. How much power we lend to that part of ourselves is all that matters in the eyes of 'God'. (Purely religious, probably christian perspective however we are talking about a lesson of the Bible here)
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Polaris on January 19, 2010, 04:39:54 am
What do you mean by validate bigotry? Do you mean that natural disasters can prove a person is right in his beliefs or am I misinterpreting you?

You're probably right, the Old Testament is more of a history book than the New Testament. However, the Old Testament was the part of the Bible that was written in order to validate Jesus' (or whoever else was meant to be God's son on Earth) position as a "Messiah' when he was finally born in the New Testament. Maybe it doesn't tell the history of the Jews as much as the history of the people that God chose to follow his son in the future and there is a difference as most of the Jewish people didn't. Who knows though, it's been mistranslated through summarization etc and in general misinterpreted for too long now.

But yes, the flood talked about in the Old Testament was meant to cleanse the world of sin. Lets say that God told Noah to bring 7 pairs of all clean animals, 2 pairs of the unclean animals and his family with him.

If we take into account that God gave only humans free will, not animals, we could assume that he believed it would be 'unfair/unjust' to kill beings that did not choose how they survived. So God saved all the animals. Maybe what saved Noah was the fact that he chose to walk with God, despite free will. In which case, it's not a matter of any specific sins that condemned the rest of mankind but the absence of them in Noah?

As for your underlying question, if the story is used to validate a certain act then does that make it more than just a historical account and more of a tool? I'm not saying that every symbolic/didactic story is conjured out of thin air, it could be real events simply selected because they 'proved' a certain point, this would still make them symbolic.
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Polaris on January 19, 2010, 04:54:52 am
If found something interesting about the story of Noah, if we're going to analyse it accurately we probably need to know the origin of the story.

Quote
  The Biblical story of the epic deluge was originally written by Mesopotamian pagans at least 1,000 years earlier. The original story is written in the Akkadian language of Sumer on stone tablets bearing cuneiform letters.  At 4,000 years old, these are the oldest syllabic texts on Earth.   Moses is popularly perceived as the author of the Old Testament including Genesis, but the stories to his credit were already carved in stone several centuries before the earliest period in which the would-be author could have lived.  The popularly accepted notion of Moses in the court of Ramses II would have meant that these stories preceded the alleged author by as much as 1,000 years.  These ancient tablets include the first versions of the Creation myth and multiple versions of a single theme that is remarkably similar to that of Noah. 

In each of these versions as in the Bible, a man is said to have had divine inspiration to construct a vessel in which he had loaded breeding stock of each of the animals he could get aboard. Now his name was not Noah and his inspiration was not the Hebrew god. The divine command in this earliest account came from the gods of the polytheistic Sumerian mythos, but it is still unlikely that the original story did not inspire the Biblical counterpart. The tablets of Enuma Elish name the hero of the flood as Ziusudra. other versions report his name as Ubar-Tutu.  After some translations, editing, and embellishment, it was changed to Utnapishtim in a more detailed account in the Epic of Gilgamesh,  After at least 1,000 generations of further translation, interpretation, and some enthusiastic exaggeration into the Hebrew version, the name was finally changed to Noah.

Genesis relates the cause of the deluge as being God's punishment of Man's wickedness. Enuma Elish has the gods causing the flood to drown the savage man for being too loud and disturbing their rest.  
Almost certainly, there was profound flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers particularly during the Jemdat Nasr period which lasted from 3200 BC to 2900 BC.  While the Mesopotamian authors did not suggest any limitation to the effected area, they did not go so far as to state that the flood engulfed the entire Earth.  In fact, the depth of the flood is limited to 22 feet beyond flood depth, just as it is first described in the Bible.  At that depth, the Tigris / Euphrates valley would have been under water for many miles in every direction being quite flat and already marshy.  Noah's counterpart in this story finds dry land after only seven days and not the year suggested in the Bible.  Utnapishtim's account is also quite grisly in its eventual details of the hundreds of human and animal corpses damming the receding waterways.

The Sumerian text also does not limit the number or type of animals that were loaded aboard, but then again they do not say that it was all inclusive.  It can be assumed that if this document was based on a historic event, that he would have loaded only his own livestock, but this proto-Noah may even have had his own managerie.  Many middle-eastern societies in ancient times kept manageries of all types of animals as an indication of status or simply a display of wealth and Zuisudra was after all, a king as opposed to the humble herdsman described in Genesis.  Such zoos included many more creatures than what would now be considered barnyard stock and even the domestic animals might have included elephants, camels, gnus, and many types of antelope. 

This suggests that although yes, it was a historical account, the story was changed in order to pose as a 'warning' to later generations. However, as I highlighted, there is the possibility that this earlier similar story was not the inspiration for the story of Noah's Ark.

Here's the site if you want to read more:

http://evolutionofgenesis.homestead.com/Zuisudra.html (http://evolutionofgenesis.homestead.com/Zuisudra.html)
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Polaris on January 19, 2010, 06:33:18 pm
Yeh, that makes a lot of sense. God being all powerful and all controlling and all...

I found a more detailed and specific idea of what the original Noah's Ark myth may have been:

Quote
These are some examples of mistakes: The ambiguous word for hill or country was mistranslated as mountain. The words that identified the flood as a river flood were changed to indicate an ocean deluge. The archaic number signs in which the Genesis 5 numbers and Noah's age were recorded, were mistranslated which made them about ten times their original value. The "flood" of Genesis 6-7 was confused with the "waters" of Genesis 8. A journey on foot to Mount Judi in the Mountains of Ararat was confused with a journey on the water of the Persian Gulf. The numbers in the Sumerian King List were also mistraslated by an ancient scribe.

The reconstructed legend is this: Ziusudra reigned for ten years as king of Shuruppak, a Sumerian city then on the Euphrates River. Ziusudra's reign was at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period that ended with the flood of 2900 BC. Then as now, river barges were used for transporting cargo on the Euphrates River. This cargo included livestock, beer, wine, textiles, lumber, stone, metals, dried fish, vegetable oil, and other cargo. In June about 2900 BC during the annual inundation of the Euphrates River, the river was at crest stage. A six-day thunderstorm caused the river to rise about 15 cubits (22 feet) higher and overflow the levees. By the time the river began to rise, it was already too late to evacuate to the foothills of the mountains 110 miles away. Ziusudra boarded one the the barges that was already loaded with cargo being transported to market. The runaway barge floated down the Euphrates River into the Persian Gulf and grounded in an estuary at the mouth of the river. After moving to dry land, Ziusudra offered a sacrifice to a Sumerian god on an alter at the top of a temple ziggurat, an artificial hill. Later, story tellers mistranslated the ambiguous word for hill as mountain. The story tellers then erroneously assumed that the nearby barge must have grounded on top of a mountain.

This was taken from, Noah's Ark and the Ziusudra Epic - by Robert M. Best

Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Muerte on January 20, 2010, 06:41:12 am
  So let me get this straight.  The translators of the bible story made a Mountain out of a molehill?  Wow, imagine that, something so important blown completely out of proportion......
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Polaris on January 21, 2010, 04:11:42 am
I know right? It's a surprise but if we work together, as a community, in time, we may just be able to accept this turn of events as fact?
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Raziel on January 21, 2010, 06:03:48 am
Everyone(well except me) here( in this thread at least) is so good at research, maybe eventually we could name a thread or build a club that debunks myths using already collected data. I wonder what you guys will name it....... :banplea:
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Muerte on January 21, 2010, 08:16:05 am
  How about "Cold Hard TRUTH!" ?
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Polaris on January 22, 2010, 12:22:06 am
Or, 'Just Google it' maybe? That's what I did...
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Muerte on January 22, 2010, 06:19:14 am
Or, 'Just Google it' maybe? That's what I did...

  NOOOOOO!  You must never give away such a secret!!!  What ever will we do if the masses finally are able to reason for themselves?  Hell, we might as well consign ourselves to never having to answer questions again for everyone will at least have a small amount of self motivation after such a disastrous turn of events.  Imagine, everyone able to look up their own information, what a concept.  It scares me!  No this must never happen, people must never become so bold as to think for themselves!!!!















  Sorry, guys, that must have been my political Christian side talking again   <^>  .
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: matthew321 on January 22, 2010, 12:10:34 pm

  NOOOOOO!  You must never give away such a secret!!!  What ever will we do if the masses finally are able to reason for themselves?  Hell, we might as well consign ourselves to never having to answer questions again for everyone will at least have a small amount of self motivation after such a disastrous turn of events.  Imagine, everyone able to look up their own information, what a concept.  It scares me!  No this must never happen, people must never become so bold as to think for themselves!!!


Relax we got our buddy sloth on this one. He is stopping this problem right in its tracks. The masses shall be slowed in their answer seeking. They shall be slowed in the quest to think for themselves. We will be safe for the time being.















  Sorry, guys, that must have been my political Christian side talking again   <^>  .
[/quote]
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Polaris on January 22, 2010, 04:57:58 pm
Luckily they'll become so reliant on Google to give them answers that we can slowly feed whatever we want people to think into the search results and viola, controlled masses who think they're informed. They'd never see it coming, it would be like giving air to a baby and saying it's food!

Actually not really...
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Raziel on January 23, 2010, 06:31:16 am
google is harder to manipulate than you think........ It beat china, it beat you. *<:)
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Polaris on January 23, 2010, 07:27:37 pm
Unless, unless the people running Google are already feeding knowledge to the masses, ohohoh! No wonder China blocked Google, they were ON TO THEM! AHA!

We've got to start using Clusty guys...
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Muerte on January 30, 2010, 04:26:27 pm
LOL  Ok guys time to get back to topic  How long did Noah and his Brood float upon the flood waters?  I ask cause the time frame from start to finish does not fit a river overflow.
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Muerte on January 30, 2010, 08:29:17 pm
  http://www.bartleby.com/108/01/7.html (http://www.bartleby.com/108/01/7.html)

6     And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.


13     And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
14    And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.


  As you can see it was slightly longer than 40 weeks (only slightly though)  And no matter how bad the navigation skills in that time he should have hit something if it was nothing more than a river overflowing.  No there is something more, and I am waiting to see if you guys can come up with the same theory as I have, not saying I am correct, but it would explain such a disaster.

  (Also I think he was a drift so his navigational skills would be negligible)
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Muerte on January 31, 2010, 01:27:44 pm
The one possibility that comes to my mind is that Noah was in fact a refugee from sunken Atlantis.

  You must be psychic because my theory on the flood also involves Atlantis.  A mass world extinction event that effected both.  It's a stretch to involve both together, but I am still searching out dates to see if they jive.  Now what mass extinction event could it be?
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Muerte on February 01, 2010, 07:32:12 pm
  I can think of something else that would cause a world wide flood without the melting of a Polar Ice Cap.  Actualy a Polar melting and my thoughts may have correlating effects.  Something along the lines of "You can not have one without the other".
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Raziel on February 01, 2010, 10:45:21 pm
Everyone peeing at the same time?
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Muerte on February 02, 2010, 07:31:11 am
  I can think of something else that would cause a world wide flood without the melting of a Polar Ice Cap.  Actualy a Polar melting and my thoughts may have correlating effects.  Something along the lines of "You can not have one without the other".

It seems the theory is that the volcano we call Krakatoa blew up and the ashes caused the ice to melt faster (absorbing more heat) together with some gigantic tsunamis. All in all - I think the theory is plausible. The time for the ending of the latest ice age coincides more or less with the time legends tell that Atlantis was destroyed.

It would be nice though, if someone independently could verify the theory - or maybe find some archaeological proof. And I'm not so sure about the rest of his conclusions. He seems to try to fit in every religion and culture into his Atlantis theory.


  He can try, but he is sure to find that to be an execise in futility.  As for me, I have two words for you.  Polar Shift.
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: Raziel on February 02, 2010, 05:25:54 pm
Damn you and your epochs !
Title: Re: Naoh and Sin
Post by: jordyn on February 18, 2010, 07:10:20 pm
http://www.history.com/search.do?searchText=noah%27s+ark (http://www.history.com/search.do?searchText=noah%27s+ark)

the atlantis theory might work with the pre sumerian culture, but noah?