This is my bold quest to elighten my forum members here on the nobler aspects of Islam that led me to view that religon in a respectful light. Of all the different creeds that I'm acquaintanced with,Islam alone can claim to preach and practice true brotherhood and social/economic equality among the disparate races that humanity is made up of. This is why I believe in the inherant humanity and compassion of the religon propagated to the world by the Prophet Mohamad,one of the most noble sons of men to ever grace this planet.



http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/prophet/

Hi MM,

I'll certainly look over this link when I have more time.

I know absolutely nothing about Islam.  I am curious though, isn't this the religion that caused the suicide bombers to fly into the twin towers, and commit other terrorist acts?  If not, who was that?

~Morticia

I suggest you research eastern philosophy -- Buddhism and Taoism especially.  There are hidden evils within Islam.  In fact, many people believe that the angel who came to Mohamad was not Gabriel, rather it was Satan or some other demonic power acting out his wishes.  This is a somewhat popular belief, because the main difference between Islam and Christianity with regards to the apocalyptic prophecies (Revelations) is that Islam contains no mention of the anti-christ appearing before the actual return of Christ.  Some people believe that Satan came to Mohamad in disguise with the intent to create this new religion and influence the world in his favor, especially for the end-times.  This way, when the Anti-Christ has risen, the Christians and Muslims will war.  Christians will see the Anti-Christ for what he really is, while Muslims will see him as the actual Messiah.  Also, the influence of Satan can be seen in the extremist Muslims.  Terrorism is, by some, thought to be the work of Satan acting through Islam.  Minor details in the Qur'an trigger evil responses in the weak spirited.  The entire middle east could be thought of as the beginning of Satan's kingdom on Earth.  To some, those are the people of Satan.

Personally, I would like to think this belief is not valid.  However, I could also see a similar scenario involving Christianity.  Perhaps Jesus was not the son of God, but the son of Satan instead.  Perhaps all the things Jesus did in the name of God and the things Christians do now in the name of Jesus are all really a result of Satan.  Perhaps the king of deception has deceived us all.  It is possible that Satan designed an intricate plan to create an unknowing army for himself in the end-times.  Perhaps there really is no such thing as the Anti-Christ and that is all a lie created by Satan himself, so that when the true Messiah comes, Satan will have an army of followers who think they are working for God.  Christians.  They would destroy the so-called Anti-Christ, who is in fact the real Messiah.  Satan would win.  Perhaps the fate of the universe lies in the hands of mankind.  Maybe God's faith in mankind will need to be tested without divine interference.  Perhaps the final test of mankind is whether or not we will destroy the Messiah when he comes.  If we do, then Satan's influence has won us over.  If we do not, and we realize the Messiah for what he really is without believing him to be the Anti-Christ (a false concept spread by Christianity) then God (and the forces of good) will win.

Personally, I believe neither of these beliefs to be true.  I completely created the second situation simply to demonstrate another possibility.  I believe we are all too confused and wrapped up in lies created by the Catholic Church and false prophets along the course of time.  No one can truly fathom the complexity and omnipotence of God.  We, as humans, lack the cerebral capacity to do so.  Therefore, I do not believe in "God" in the same sense as most humans, and I will follow no human religion because all are flawed.  Philosophy, on the other hand, I find to be very enlightening.  Eastern philosophy is especially interesting, and Buddhist views on life and death can be very comforting in times of need, or after the loss of a loved one.

If you find yourself lost, without a cause, perhaps you should explore Buddhism.  You may just find God, in the true sense.  This makes no sense now, but to those of you who follow this advice... you will know what I mean when the time is right.

By the way maggot, this was in no way meant to degrade your beliefs or take away from your post.  I only mean to open eyes, as was your initial intention.  I do hope you are not offended by my words.

Hi MM,

I'll certainly look over this link when I have more time.

I know absolutely nothing about Islam.  I am curious though, isn't this the religion that caused the suicide bombers to fly into the twin towers, and commit other terrorist acts?  If not, who was that?

~Morticia

Yes, those acts were carried out in the name of Islam.  This is part of what I had addressed in my previos post, concerning the influence of Satan within Islam.  Personally, I believe both Christianity and Islam to be flawed religions... as all religions are, by nature, flawed.  This is because our concept of God is over-simplified, as God is surely more complex than anyone can ever fathom.

One more thing....

Why do I have so few posts when I know I have posted so much more than this?  It says I have 30 posts.  That is certainly incorrect.

I could care less, but is this a result of the site getting hacked a while back?

Not at all,Cursed. I welcome open debate onn this thread,even at the risk of straying off into terrotiary that would be deemed very politically incorrect.

 Morticia,you must understand that these terrorists have but an imperfect understanding of Islam,something that has most regrettably resulted in them commiting atrocities in the name of what is a fundamentally deacent faith. It is worth noting that the Prophet himself exhorted his followers to  live life to the fullest,assuring them that particpating in the wholesome pleasures it had to offer was a fit way of worshipping  and honoring God. Is he then to be held at fault now that renegade elements of his flock have totally taken certain texts in the Koran out of contex? Can you safely say that Christians have never done the same with the teachings of Jesus? Moreover,it is important that you also note the fact that sucide bombing is an orignally un-Islamic concept introduced to jihadis by the Tamil terrorists of Sri Lanka.

you also note the fact that sucide bombing is an orignally un-Islamic concept introduced to jihadis by the Tamil terrorists of Sri Lanka

I can't see that statement in Cursed 1s post. And I think you're trying to hide a lie amongst a truth there - that's like saying suicide bombing is un-Islamic because it was originally the Chinese who invented gunpowder! Why don't you state instead, "Jihad is an originally Islamic concept violently introduced to non-Islamic people by Mohamad."

Just prior to Muhammad's leaving for Medina, he received  a "revelation" allowing him to fight the Meccans.  He knew that in Medina, he had a group of armed men who would support him.  Furthermore, in Medina, he would be more distant from the Meccans and their attempts to oppress or kill him.  The following is from "The Life of Muhammad", page 212, by A. Guillaume, which is a rendering of Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", a biography of Muhammad written by an early Muslim scholar:
 "...The apostle had not been given permission to fight or allowed to shed blood before the second Aqaba [a place where a pledge was made between Muhammad and his followers from Medina]. He had simply been ordered to call men to God and to endure insult and forgive the ignorant... Then God sent down to him: "Fight them so that there be no more seduction,"  i.e. until no believer is seduced from his religion. "

A group of feuding Arabs in Medina accepted him as their prophet.  They hoped he could help them maintain peace.  They eventually made a pledge to support Muhammad in war against the Quraysh [Guillaume, op cit, page 205].  Now Muhammad knew he had an able and armed following.  It was only when he had a following who could defend themselves, and his people were migrating north to Medina, and that he knew he was going to leave town, that suddenly "Allah" gave Muhammad his "revelation" to fight.  Muhammad's circumstances changed, and Muhammad's Allah changed with them.  Muhammad went from being only a "warner" to being an aggressor.

After moving to Medina, Muhammad began to have conflict with the Jews and pagans in the area.  I'll focus on several incidents that illustrate Muhammad as a terrorist.

From Guillaume, op cit, page 369:  "The apostle said, "Kill any Jew who falls into your power."  Thereupon Muhayyisa b. Masud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him.  Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time though he was the elder brother.  When Muhayyisa killed him Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, 'You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?'  Muhayyisa answered, 'Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.'"

This story is also supported in the Sunan of Abu Dawud, Book 13, Number 2996: "Narrated Muhayyisah:  The Apostle of Allah said:  If you gain a victory over the men of Jews, kill them.  So Muhayyisah jumped over Shubaybah, a man of the Jewish merchants.  He had close relations with them.  He then killed him.  At that time Huwayyisah (brother of Muhayyisah) had not embraced Islam.  He was older than Muhayyisah.  When he killed him, Huwayyisah beat him and said:  O enemy of Allah, I swear by Allah, you have a good deal of fat in your belly from his property."

 A quote from an Islamic scholar - Wensinck writes in his, "Muhammad and the Jews of Medina", page 113: "It is remarkable that tradition attributes Muhammad's most cruel acts to divine order, namely the siege of Qaynuqa, the murder of Kab, and he attack upon Qurayzah.  Allah's conscience seems to be more elastic than that of his creatures."..... Ibn Ishaq and al-Waqidi report that the prophet said the morning after the murder (of Kab Ashraf), "Kill any Jew you can lay your hands on.".

This shows that Muhammad had unsuspecting people, those who even had good relations with Muslims, murdered in cold blood because they were Jewish.  There was no justification to murder these Jews other than they were not Muhammad's followers.  These actions were the work of Muhammad's terrorists committing murder.

The second terrorist incident involves another one of Muhammad's requests:  this one for his men to murder an old Jewish man named Abu Afak.  Abu Afak was 120 years.  Abu Afak had urged his fellow Medinans to question Muhammad. From Guillaume, op cit., page 675:
The apostle said, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?"  Whereupon Salim b. Umayr, brother of B. Amr b. Auf, one of the "weepers", went forth and killed him.  Umama b. Muzayriya said concerning that:

You gave the lie to God's religion and the man Ahmad!  [Muhammad]
By him who was your father, evil is the son he produced!
A "hanif" gave you a thrust in the night saying
"Take that Abu Afak in spite of your age!"
Though I knew whether it was man or jinn
Who slew you in the dead of night (I would say naught)."

From a contemporary Muslim scholar - Ali Dashti's "23 Years:  A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad", page 100:P "Abu Afak, a man of great age (reputedly 120 years) was killed because he had lampooned Mohammad.  The deed was done by Salem b. Omayr at the behest of the Prophet, who had asked, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?"  The killing of such an old man moved a poetess, Asma b. Marwan, to compose disrespectful verses about the Prophet, and she too was assassinated."

Prior to listing all of the assassinations Muhammad had ordered, Ali Dashti writes on page 97: "Thus Islam was gradually transformed from a purely spiritual mission into a militant and punitive organization whose progress depended on booty from raids and revenue from the zakat tax."

The third incident involves Muhammad's request for his men to murder the woman poet Asma b. Marwan.

Quoting from Guillaume, pages 675, 676: "When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?"  Umayr b. Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her.  In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O Umayr!"  When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so Umayr went back to his people.

Now there was a great commotion among B. Khatma that day about the affair of bint [girl] Marwan.  She had five sons, and when Umayr went to them from the apostle he said, "I have killed bint Marwan, O sons of Khatma.  Withstand me if you can; don't keep me waiting."  That was the first day Islam became powerful among B. Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact.  The first of them to accept Islam was Umayr b. Adiy who was called the "Reader", and Abdullah b. Aus and Khuzayma b. Thabit.  The day after Bint Marwan was killed the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam."

Let's sum this up and put it in perspective......

Muhammad had al-Harith b. Suwayd b. Samit killed.  This upset Abu Afak, so he spoke out against it.  So, likewise, Muhammad had Abu Afak murdered.  This offended Asma b. Marwan and she spoke out against that evil deed.  She encouraged her fellow tribesmen to take action against Muhammad.  When Muhammad heard of what she had said, he had her killed also.

What alarms me the most about Islam is its disposition to violence and use of violence as a standard of God's will. Umayr is a perfect example of this.  Here is a Muslim man, a friend of Muhammad's, acting upon Muhammad's request and going into a woman's home under the cover of night.  He comes upon the woman, sleeping in her bed with her child, and murders her by plunging a sword through her body. Afterwards, Muhammad tells the man that he has "helped God and his apostle".  If Allah were really threatened by this woman, I think He could have killed her Himself, don't you?  Does God need men to sneak around in the night and murder sleeping women?


~ Viper ~

The Jews were motivated by their jealous pride and envy of Muhammad to commit an act of betrayal against him that was most dishonest and foul. Despite that Muhamad did not choose to have these oath-breakers massacred as he could have chosen to, in full accordance with the traditional laws that dictated justice during that period. On the contrary,he repaid treachery with magmanity and mercy. It is a sentiment that the Jews would do well to adopt.



 ''The fate of the three Jewish tribes of Madinah is closely linked with the three major battles, which decided the fate of the Muslim community. The tragedy can be seen in what could have been rather than what actually transpired.
Muhammad (S) had clear expectations for the Jews and Christians of Arabia from the very beginning. He knew that the "people of the book", as the Qur'an calls them, were familiar with the concepts of monotheism and righteousness, that they had clear Messianic expectations. He expected them to recognize him as a Messenger of Allah. The clarity, sanity, and truthfulness of the Qur'anic message, he thought, would turn them toward Islam. Some "people of the book" did accept the message.
And when they (the Christians) hear what hath been sent down to the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflow with tears because of the truth which they recognize. They say, "Our Lord! We believe. Write us down therefore with those who bear witness." (Qur'an 5: 83)

However most not only rejected the Qur'an's message but also showed hostility. This was especially true of the Jews of Madinah. They felt that any new Prophet should come from amongst them, the "chosen people". Muhammad's (S) leadership threatened their political power in Madinah, and so they regarded him as an enemy.
As mentioned earlier, one of Muhammad's (S) first acts on arrival at Madinah was to gather all the major tribes together, including the Jewish tribes to sign a Covenant. One of its major articles was the agreement to defend jointly against a common enemy. The tribe of Banu Qaynuqa' was the first to violate the treaty with the Muslims. The reason for this appears unclear, but it seems that the victory at Badr increased Muslim prestige, which they viewed as a direct threat to Jewish influence and prestige in Madinah. For the Qaynuqa ', who had the reputation of being the most fearless and proud tribe in the area, the increase in Muslim prestige resulted in a clear diminution of their standing in the community. In a society that functioned on social pride this was a serious matter and they became increasingly disagreeable and hostile towards the Muslims. In this tense atmosphere, there were many incidents of provocation. A Muslim woman was molested, for example, and in the ensuing fight a Jew and a Muslim were killed. As several articles of the Covenant had been breached repeatedly by the tribe of Banu Qaynuqa' the Muslims decided to besiege their fortress. After about two weeks of siege, the Qaynuqa' capitulated and were exiled.
Petty jealousy and hostility also motivated the clash with the Jewish tribe of Banu Nadir. After the battle of Uhud the Muslim position appeared much weaker. The Jewish tribes had excused themselves from the battle of Uhud, on the grounds of Sabbath, and had once again violated the Covenant. The Quraysh who expected the Banu Qurayzah to come to their help, may have instigated this. Abdullah bin Ubayy, a local chieftain with ambitions of being the leader of Madinah, had clandestinely promised to help them causing them to be even more arrogant and intransigent in their behavior. Following the battle, they even attempted to assassinate Muhammad (S). They were also besieged in their fortress and soon capitulated.
"He it is who caused the unbelievers among the People of the Book to quit their homes, to join those who had gone into exile earlier. Ye (believers) never thought they would quit their homes, And even they (the People of the Book) on their part thought that their fortresses would protect them against Allah. But Allah's force (the believers) came upon them from whence they scarcely expected it." (Qur'an 59: 2)
The Banu Nadir was permitted to take as many of their belongings as they could on their beasts of burden. Some of them ripped out the doors and windows of their homes and loaded them onto their camels. Many of them destroyed what was left of their homes so that it might not be usable to the Muslims. The Qur'an draws attention to this irony:
"And caused such upheaval in their hearts that they let their houses be demolished by their own hands." (Qur'an 59: 2)

Referring to the hypocrites who had promised to help the Banu Nadir but did not, the Qur'an elaborates as follows:
If they are expelled, they (the hypocrites among them) will not go forth with them, And if they are attacked, they (the hypocrites) will not help them; And even if these (make a show) of helping them, they will do so only to turn their backs so they will in fact receive no help at all
They (the People of the Book) will not fight you in a body except from fortified towns or from behind walls. They are themselves opposed to each other, and thou (O Prophet) thinkest they are united (among themselves). But at heart, they are not united. This is because they are not a sensible people.
They are just like those who had preceded them and tasted the results of their doings; So there awaiteth therein a grievous chastisement. (Qur'an 59:12, 14 and 15)

The most tragic encounter with the Jews in Madinah was with the third and the last remaining Jewish tribe, the Banu Qurayzah. The expulsion of the Banu Nadir initially had a sobering effect and the Qurayzah revalidated the covenant with the Muslims. However, soon they were conspiring with both the pagans of Makkah and the Jewish tribes that had been expelled. When the Qurayshi armies attacked in what was later called the "battle of the trench" (Khandaq), the Qurayzah connived with them. If the invading army had been successful in breaching the trench, the Qurayzah would have attacked the Muslims from behind, resulting in total annihilation of the Muslim community. This was clearly a serious act of treason.
The Muslims had been extremely patient with the Jews. Their retaliation was proportionate, limited and just. With each breach of the treaty the penalty was increased. Even though the other two tribes had been expelled, the Banu Qurayzah had been given the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless they reneged on the treaty, again with potentially extremely dangerous consequences to the Muslims. After the battle of the trench was won, the fortress in which the Banu Qurayzah lived was besieged and they surrendered after a short while. As was Muhammad's (S) custom, they were judged by the rules of their own scripture, the Tawrah (Torah) and traditions (Talmud), and were asked to select an individual (Sa'd bin Mu'adh), from their allies, the tribe of Aws, who they could trust as their judge.
"And He brought down out of their fortresses such of the People of the Book (the Jews) as had aided (the confederates) and cast despair into their hearts. Of these, ye slew some and some ye made captives. And as heritage He gave you their land and their dwellings and their wealth, And further a territory on which you had never set foot. And Allah hath power over all things!" (Qur'an 33: 26 -27.)''

So you see, evil  Viper,the true terrorists were the Jews who had been  planning to strike Muhammad in his back as it was turned towards them unprotected. This was done with the sly and maloveant intention of leaving him vulnereble to the hostile forces in Mecca that thirsted for the utter annihlation of Islam. For the sake of your own reputation,please stop trying to defend the foes of the Prophet.  No possible good can come out of your trying to play advocate for mass murderers and oath-breakers.

And once again,it is you who seek to undermine and warp the truth,not I

If the events I referred to above are untrue or warped, prove it! You can't, can you? Because they are TRUE. As recorded by your own Islamic scholars. Want more? From the Hadith of Abu Dawud, Book 38, Number 4348:

"Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas: A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood..."

Or, Amr Umayya, who was sent out by Muhammad to murder Muhammad's enemy Abu Sufyan, (Guillaume, page 673). However, their assassination attempt failed. As he returned home, he met a one-eyed shepherd. The shepherd and the Muslim man both identified themselves as members of the same Arab clan. Prior to going asleep, the shepherd said that he would never become a Muslim. Umayya waited for the shepherd to fall asleep, and thereafter:

"as soon as the badu was asleep and snoring I got up and killed him in a more horrible way than any man has been killed. I put the end of my bow in his sound eye, then I bore down on it until I forced it out at the back of his neck."

Umayya returned and spoke with Muhammad. He relates......."He [Muhammad] asked my news and when I told him what had happened he blessed me".

Or the band of Muslims who were sent out by Muhammad on a raid against the Fazara tribe. The Muslims were initially defeated by the Fazara. The wounded Muslim leader swore vengeance. After he recovered he went out and attacked the Fazara again. One very old woman was captured. Here is the account from Guillaume, page 665:

"....and Umm Qirfa Fatima was taken prisoner. She was a very old woman, wife of Malik. Her daughter and Abdullah Masada were also taken. Zayd ordered Qays to kill Umm Qirfa and he killed her cruelly by putting a rope to her two legs and to two camels and driving them until they rent her in two."

The Jews [committed] an act of betrayal against him that was most dishonest and foul... No possible good can come out of your trying to play advocate for mass murderers and oath-breakers

"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." [Qur'an, Sura 9:5]

The background for this verse is found in "The Life of Muhammad", page 617-619: "A discharge came down, [Muhammad received a revelation from God], permitting the breaking of the agreement between the apostle and the Jews that none should be kept back from the temple when he came to it, and that none need fear during the sacred months. That there was a general agreement between him and the Jews; meanwhile there were particular agreements between the apostle and the Arab tribes for specified terms. And there came down about it and about the disaffected who held back from him in the raid on Tabuk [a Christian town Muhammad attacked, and forced them to pay him tax or be slaughtered]...So travel through the land for four months and know that you cannot escape God and that God will put the unbelievers to shame. And a proclamation from God and His apostle to men on the day of the greater pilgrimage that God and His apostle are free from obligation to the Jews, i.e., after this pilgrimage. So if you repent it will be better for you; and if you turn back know that you cannot escape God. Inform those who disbelieve, about a painful punishment except those polytheists with whom you have made a treaty..."

Basically, Muhammad had an agreement with a number of  tribes. Some were peaceful with him, others disliked him. "Allah" gave Muhammad a "revelation" allowing him to break his word, the "agreement" with the pagan Arabs and attack them after the four sacred months were over.

Maggot Man, I will no longer respond in this thread, because we will never agree and further debate between us will never change that! I respect your entitlement to your opinion, and I respect you as an intelligent "sparring partner"! BUT I dislike your veiled personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with you (calling me a liar    or falsely claiming I am misrepresenting Islamic scholars.) When posts start to get personal, I will leave them to the teenagers on here to play with

Finally, I respect that you should have a thread here to use your 'voice' to promote your choice of faith, without being sniped    at by the "opposition"  

Your friend
~ Viper ~

Maggot Man, I will no longer respond in this thread, because we will never agree and further debate between us will never change that! I respect your entitlement to your opinion, and I respect you as an intelligent "sparring partner"! BUT I dislike your veiled personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with you (calling me a liar Shocked or falsely claiming I am misrepresenting Islamic scholars.) When posts start to get personal, I will leave them to the teenagers on here to play with Very Happy


  Viper,I did not start this thread with the intention of dragging you into a prolonged flame war. Nor did I plan for this to get personal in any way. BUT I was somewhat offended by your initial post that implied I was delibrately concealing the truth. Remember this statement? ''I can't see that statement in Cursed 1s post. And I think you're trying to hide a lie amongst a truth there - that's like saying suicide bombing is un-Islamic because it was originally the Chinese who invented gunpowder!''

 Naturally,I was instantly peeved as I did not appreciate being called a liar. My post was in no way related to that of Cursed,but merely a possible explanation for Morticia as to why the fanatics that have besmirched the name of Islam behave the way they do. It may be,as my mind now suggests, that a grave misunderstanding occured between us at some point,thereby precipating the ugly turn that our debate took. If it stemmed from some rash mis-perception on my part,I do offer my apologies.

 But as you say,it is time that we put aside our swords. I like you,value our friendship and have no wish for it to come to nought over a debate of religon that became more intense that either of had anticipated.


 Your friend,Soaring Hawk.  

P.S:I am not Muslim myself,but in this time of hate and suspicion,I feel it my duty to shed some light on a much maligned religon that is not the gruesome evil it has been made to look.