Author Topic: Feminist Theology?  (Read 5590 times)

Devious Viper
  • Guest
Re: Demons Before the Fall
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2006, 01:39:40 pm »
The "Seven Deadly Sins" are not catalogued as such in the Bible, however Proverbs 6:16-19 declares: "There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: (1) haughty eyes, (2) a lying tongue, (3) hands that shed innocent blood, (4) a heart that devises wicked schemes, (5) feet that are quick to rush into evil, (6) a false witness who pours out lies, and (7) a man who stirs up dissension among brothers."

For the individual references to the "Deadly Sins":
1. LUST: "For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished. It is a devastating fire that destroys to hell. It would wipe out everything I own." (Job 31:11-12)
2. GLUTTONY: "Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags." (Proverbs 23:20-21) "He who keeps the law is a discerning son, but a companion of gluttons disgraces his father." (Proverbs 28:7) 
3. AVARICE: "Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." (Luke 12:15)
4. SLOTH: "He also that is slack in his work Is brother to him that is a destroyer." (Proverbs 18:9)
5. PRIDE: "Likewise, ye younger, be subject unto the elder. Yea, all of you gird yourselves with humility, to serve one another: for God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble." (1 Peter 5:5)
6. ANGER: "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and railing, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, even as God also in Christ forgave you. " (Ephesians 4:31-2)
7: ENVY: "Let us walk becomingly, as in the day; not in revelling and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and jealousy. " (Romans 13:13)
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 03:16:54 pm by Devious Viper »

Devious Viper
  • Guest
Re: re: Demons Before the Fall
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2006, 01:53:39 pm »
Morticia, I see you were researching your Jewish Roots..?

jordyn

  • Mod
  • Realized Monster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2617
  • Karma: +20/-22
Re: Demons Before the Fall
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2006, 02:17:22 pm »
The "Seven Deadly Sins" are not catalogued as such in the Bible, however Proverbs 6:16-19 declares: "There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him: (1) haughty eyes, (2) a lying tongue, (3) hands that shed innocent blood, (4) a heart that devises wicked schemes, (5) feet that are quick to rush into evil, (6) a false witness who pours out lies, and (7) a man who stirs up dissension among brothers."

For the individual references to the "Deadly Sins":
1. LUST: "For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished. It is a devastating fire that destroys to hell. It would wipe out everything I own." (Job 31:11-12)
2. GLUTTONY: Proverbs 23:20-21 "Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags." (Proverbs 23:20-21) "He who keeps the law is a discerning son, but a companion of gluttons disgraces his father." (Proverbs 28:7) 
3. AVARICE: "Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." (Luke 12:15)
4. SLOTH: "He also that is slack in his work Is brother to him that is a destroyer." (Proverbs 18:9)
5. PRIDE: "Likewise, ye younger, be subject unto the elder. Yea, all of you gird yourselves with humility, to serve one another: for God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble." (1 Peter 5:5)
6. ANGER: "Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and railing, be put away from you, with all malice: and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, even as God also in Christ forgave you. " (Ephesians 4:31-2)
7: ENVY: "Let us walk becomingly, as in the day; not in revelling and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and jealousy. " (Romans 13:13)

those make absolute sense, however

PRIDE: "Likewise, ye younger, be subject unto the elder. Yea, all of you gird yourselves with humility, to serve one another: for God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble." (1 Peter 5:5)

how is it pride in womanhood to question the true intentions of statements concerning them?  I'm not contesting the bible is the word of God, but why is it wrong of me to question those who interpreted his words and wrote them down for the world to read?

if God intended us to serve in silence, he would not have given us mouths or minds to use them with.  :P
"The world that God made is inherently comprised of relationships, symmetries, analogia, anagogy, poetic wisdom. Thus is the language of symbolism."

Devious Viper
  • Guest
Re: Demons Before the Fall
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2006, 04:30:18 pm »
Okay. I've put this through the wringer, and dug out as many references and commentaries as I could find. I've even telephoned Israel to speak to one of my good Messianic Jew friends for his input on the synagogues and early apostolic churches. I am rethinking how previously I might have interpreted these passages. Here's our thoughts:

The early Christians were, effectively, Messianic Jews joined by Gentiles. Their churches would have been run as were the synagogues -  the men traditionally sit on one side, and the women traditionally sit on the other. The Gentile women would have no knowledge or understanding of the etiquette of the synagogue, and would call out from their side of the congregation to their husbands to verify questions. This could be why Paul said they should ask their husbands at home and not speak out, because they were interrupting his sermons! But there may be even more...

Do you recall the post about Onan I made? In which I pointed out the socio-historical context, whereby the early Christians were looked down upon for treating their wives and women as equals? We know from contemporary writings that society had a generally negative attitude towards women and both Jews and Greeks believed women should be limited to the domestic roles of wife and mother and treated them pretty much as chattels. Despite this Jesus had a very positive attitude towards them; for example:
1.He accepted and affirmed women who were neglected by society and declared them people of value.
2.He healed women who were considered ritually unclean and forgave women guilty of sexual sin.
3.He both taught women and included them amongst his followers.
4.In his teaching they are often used as examples of people living a life of faith.
5.Although women were not generally educated at the time of Jesus he allowed them to sit at his feet - which was not an insult, but a great compliment: it was the traditional posture of a disciple.

Paul is a man who stands astride both the Old and the New Testament - he was a Jewish Pharisee! In the fledgling apostolic church, he was able to understand the cultural sensitivities and peculiarities of both the Jew and the Gentile. He faced very real trials - and severe beatings, even imprisonment - as he sought to establish Christ's church. We know from the NT that he was very clever - and could talk people around to his way of thinking. but he still needed to be sensitive to the opinions of society whilst trying to establish the new Christian faith. Paul's letters to the young churches would have been written in response to real issues facing them at the time. When Paul writes about women he is obviously responding to a situation in the "there and then" about their role and place in the new church structures.

Turning to a text on feminist theology, I would like you to read this:

Quote
It seems Paul was giving instructions to the Church which, although on the surface it looks like it denies women the right to teach and have spiritual leadership in the Church, now looks more like Paul was actually empowering women and giving them a status denied to them by society. Despite the fact that women were not held in high regard Paul taught that they were equal with men (Galatians 3:28). Far from denying women the right to have spiritual leadership Paul in fact wants women to be educated first before this happens (1 Timothy 2:11-15). Until such time Paul sets out some basic rules which will enable women to learn ("A women should learn in quietness and in full submission"). Elsewhere in the New Testament Paul acknowledges that women can have (and are having), a spiritual input into "services". In a letter to the church at Corinth he writes, "And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head..." (1 Corinthians 11:5). Notice he does not say women should not prophesy (or preach/teach) in Church services but only that they should have their head covered when they do. Thus even Paul acknowledges and allows that women should exercise spiritual leadership in Church.


The passage from Galatians, incidentally, reads: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal 3:28)

I'm certainly swayed towards this new understanding... Paul is, as I told you, my guiding light among the apostles, and knowing him as I like to think I do through his writings and his life, this does make more sense.






« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 04:38:16 pm by Devious Viper »

Morticia
  • Guest
Re: Demons Before the Fall
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2006, 04:54:14 pm »
Thank you.  I appreciate your research very much.

The church I attend has two men in particular who take literally the verses that women are to be silent and never presume to instruct a man.  No one stands up to them, so they are pretty controlling as far as our church services go. 

~Morticia

jordyn

  • Mod
  • Realized Monster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2617
  • Karma: +20/-22
Re: Demons Before the Fall
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2006, 05:18:59 pm »
Thank you.  I appreciate your research very much.

The church I attend has two men in particular who take literally the verses that women are to be silent and never presume to instruct a man.  No one stands up to them, so they are pretty controlling as far as our church services go. 

~Morticia

it's not only those two men...sadly. 

When we got into our first house together, it was a nice place, but had an icky feeling, we were going through, cleaning off some dust and found the most frightful book.  It was written using key versus as those presented here, justifying that women had no rights unless given to them by a man, even going so far as to say if the husband told her to murder, she would have to murder or be damned for not obeying her husband, that the commandments in the bible did not apply to her, that her husband is as God, as God is to him.   :-o

...as i've stated before, i don't blame this view towards God, Jesus, or even directly the bible, but people do use it for such horrible justifications of personal hates.

now that it's been explained, in a most intelligent manner...i guess i owe Paul and apology?   ;)
"The world that God made is inherently comprised of relationships, symmetries, analogia, anagogy, poetic wisdom. Thus is the language of symbolism."

Devious Viper
  • Guest
Re: Feminist Theology?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2006, 05:43:49 pm »
There is one school of thought that most doctrinal error can either come from or is encouraged by Satan. He knows his Scripture - better, even, than I do  :wink:

Someone once pointed out that if women can be persuaded that Christianity is misogynistic, then Satan will have successfully reduced our numbers by around 50%...

Back to Paul, briefly. I just re-read Acts, which tells of the trials and tribulations he went through to establish the church, and was reminded that he spent 18 months in Corinth, a vast city, where he converted many orthodox Jews to Christianity. He actually set up the fledgling church in the building immediately adjoing the orthodox Jewish synagogue in "the house of a certain man named Titus Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue. And Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized" (Act 18:7-8)

Under these circumstances, you can see that Paul would have been treading very carefully on the cultural issues to ensure that the Jews would venture into and stay in his "synagogue" to hear his Good News.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 05:55:06 pm by Devious Viper »

Zak Roy Yoballa

  • Realized Monster
  • *******
  • Posts: 690
  • Karma: +18/-6
  • We can't all be beautiful people
    • http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/bgm/pics/
Re: Feminist Theology?
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2006, 09:58:57 am »
Thanks for your input DV, you may have just answered a question I had on having a woman pastor. 

Your attitude is the only thing they can't take from you.

Morticia
  • Guest
Re: Feminist Theology?
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2006, 11:13:16 am »
There is one school of thought that most doctrinal error can either come from or is encouraged by Satan. He knows his Scripture - better, even, than I do  :wink:

Someone once pointed out that if women can be persuaded that Christianity is misogynistic, then Satan will have successfully reduced our numbers by around 50%...


Absolutely, this is satan's plan.  I have no doubt that these are the reasons that some of the groups such as Dianic witches came about.  It is 'women only', NO exceptions, and being witches, we didn't even believe satan existed. 

It's really very simple - almost everyone wants to 'belong' somewhere.

~Morticia