Author Topic: Naoh and Sin  (Read 6425 times)

Muerte

  • Realized Monster
  • *******
  • Posts: 2295
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Welcome to the worst nightmare of all... reality!
    • www.myspace.com/drkhrt_2
Naoh and Sin
« on: December 21, 2009, 09:40:46 am »
  OK everyone, here is the deal.  God told Noah to build the Ark and collect two of every animal (one Male one Female) because God was going to cleans the earth of Sin.  Now those on the Boat were Noah his Wife, Sons, and their Wives.  After the flood they were the only humans left, everyone else died.  So if they were the only ones left, and the Flood was initiated because of sin was it worth it?  We still have Sin do we not, hell, not long after the flood there was Sin.  So what does that say about God's chosen family?

  Discuss, Debate, and Vent my freind, I now turn the floor over to you.




  (Yes I know there are a few holes up there, but is that's the point, I want to get you all talking so do it.)
In remembrance of Moonbaby, one of the brightest and most glorious stars to ever grace the Monstrous community.  Missed you will be, forgotten NEVER.

Dreamer

  • Necromancers
  • Monstrous Imp
  • *
  • Posts: 35
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • What?
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2010, 09:15:31 pm »
Javeh? You mean Yahweh. Cause that's how we say it English too. 

According to the Qur'an, the people who were pious and followers of Noah and their family only did go with him,
except many other people including Noah's wife and his eldest Son who were disbelievers. Not to forget the couple of every animal.

(I think It's the Atlantis! Who think this too?)

Earth is now drowned under the water.

This is Noah's supplication to God.

“My Lord!  Leave not one of the disbelievers on the earth.  If you leave them, they will mislead Your slaves and they will beget none but wicked disbelievers.” (Quran 71:27)

Where the position of "Son" differs in Islam as it is written as "Slaves"

"3ebada" which means worships in Islam, but actually a variant of the word "Slave" or "3abeed" in Arabic.


(((Some alteration you think? Same goes to prophet Lot story)))
There is nothing here. Move along.

matthew321

  • Great Master
  • ******
  • Posts: 389
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Fate Is Earned Not Given
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2010, 12:33:48 pm »
Now here is something to wrap your mind around. If he was supposed to get every animal on the 300 cubit boat. (Is that right?)
then what about mythical creatures? Such as dragons in particular. Or perhaps any animal he could get in an egg form, which would of made it easier to fit on the ship. (assuming the animals could survive without parents) Perhaps creatures are mythical because they decided to leave them behind and only the people with Noah remember them. (creatures of mythology existed before mythology I assume) We also have to consider animals that were not extinct then such as doe- doe's (had to spell it like that for pronunciation) I assume that he didn't have to worry about animals that can live under water. Now what I want to know is what about plants? wouldn't they die from all this water (supposed 40 days and nights). So did the water carry seeds?

Now I think that perhaps it was an ice age before the flood and god decided to start the next global warming cycle of earth  which would make it warm then after a thousand years it gets colder then warmer, etc. I think this was a planned event or a idea conveniently timed.

That is my two cents, very interesting.
If my life is worthless then death must be my currency to spend.

Muerte

  • Realized Monster
  • *******
  • Posts: 2295
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Welcome to the worst nightmare of all... reality!
    • www.myspace.com/drkhrt_2
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2010, 02:12:26 pm »
  So far so good, everyone has brought up some intresting points.  I find it gratifying that I do not, for once, have to steer a discussion.  Keep going, let's see what transpires.  But what I was getting at was that the bible states this.


   1. The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven [a] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

  Taken from this site.

  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+7&version=NIV


  According to this, we would all have descended from Noah and his family.  Does that mean we are all inbred??  (yes there is more to this thread than that, but I can never resist a jibe)
In remembrance of Moonbaby, one of the brightest and most glorious stars to ever grace the Monstrous community.  Missed you will be, forgotten NEVER.

onishadowolf

  • Weres
  • Realized Monster
  • *
  • Posts: 1473
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • FaceBook
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2010, 04:34:10 pm »
No, we're not all descended from Noah. Because the great flood only covered the Middle East area. The reason they say the whole world, is because the Middle East was the whole world to them. There is'nt enough water on Earth to cover all landmasses completely. That is including underground water and glaciers and ice caps and rivers and lakes. Now why did that area flood and what happened to the Nephillim?
-The shadows connect us all-

Muerte

  • Realized Monster
  • *******
  • Posts: 2295
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Welcome to the worst nightmare of all... reality!
    • www.myspace.com/drkhrt_2
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 08:03:09 pm »
  Then according to the Bible, everyone of Middle Easter Decent were inbred up to a point?  Just trying to understand this whole bible thing.   <^>
In remembrance of Moonbaby, one of the brightest and most glorious stars to ever grace the Monstrous community.  Missed you will be, forgotten NEVER.

rave phillaphia

  • Realized Monster
  • *******
  • Posts: 501
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • jai kali ma!
    • myspace
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2010, 02:21:34 pm »
It is just a story... It never happened that way. This story is similar to other stories in the middle east and by the early tribes that spoke Hebrew they adopted these stories from the Sumerians and Canaanites. It is the sad sad truth of the matter... The entirety of the earth cannot be flooded because even if all the polar ice melted and all the ground water and land fresh water were combined and the precipitation in the sky it still wouldn't be enough water to even attempt to reach some of these areas of the world, let alone be able to flood the mountains. I know it is a sad story to pop everyones bubble but I have researched this topic way too much and well it came to be a dissapointment.

But anywho besides that rant. The original stories (Gilgamesh is a starting point with Uta Napistim, but there are eariler stories one with Atra-Hasis) say that the people on the earth were too loud so they flooded them out to lower the population. In Uta-Napistim it said he brought his family and livestock with him, it doesn't say every animal two of a kind. So the story of Noah is an exagerrated fish-tale (haha get it?) of these eariler stories.

And one more thing almost every culture on the planet has a flood story. Wonder why? Because many early cultures relied heavily on the rains and the floods of rivers for agricultural production! TA DA!!! So when they get too much rain and it causes a great flood they tell a story about why the God(s) are punishing them. Woot!

So loudness became sin when it was rewritten in the Babylonian times right before the Babylonian exile and there we have it. God floods the earth because of sin. Also in some stories God floods the earth because of the 'sons of light' mateing with the 'daughters of man' creating the giants, abnormal spirits, etc... that reeked havoc upon the earth. If you would like I can post my paper I did last semester for Climate change on here.
"Man has his will- but woman has her way" Oliver Wendell Holmes

"Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hella fury like a woman scorned." William Congreve

Muerte

  • Realized Monster
  • *******
  • Posts: 2295
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Welcome to the worst nightmare of all... reality!
    • www.myspace.com/drkhrt_2
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2010, 03:17:41 pm »
  Now I wounder why the bible (or rather those who wrote it) would adopt another's story and claim it as their own, with a few modifications of course.  Is there any evidence of a mass flood in the middle Easter Region in the B.C time frame?


 
Quote
(Gilgamesh is a starting point with Uta Napistim, but there are eariler stories one with Atra-Hasis)

  Was wondering who would bring this little tidbit up, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the Epic of Gilgamesh supposed to be one of the first books written?
In remembrance of Moonbaby, one of the brightest and most glorious stars to ever grace the Monstrous community.  Missed you will be, forgotten NEVER.

Polaris

  • Young Beast
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Doras feasa fiafraí
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2010, 06:22:31 pm »
It was also the time of Cesair, daughter of Bith, Granddaughter of Noah, who refused her a place on the Ark. She took her followers and sailed to Ire however, she took with her only 3 men and 50 women. The first man, Ladra was killed due to too many women wanting to balance the population  :wink:. Bith seperated himself from the group with a band of followers, while Fiontann escaped to Tul Tuinde, or the Hill of the Wave.

Although the rest perished in the biblical flood, Fiontann survived by transforming himself into a salmon, then an eagle and eventually regained his human form. Maybe it's possible that other people of the time used magic to survive the 40 day flood, therefore the bible would be correct in saying that no men who did not follow Noah were wiped from the face of the earth during this time.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 06:25:08 pm by Polaris »
She says that all energy is only borrowed; at some point you have to return it.

onishadowolf

  • Weres
  • Realized Monster
  • *
  • Posts: 1473
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • FaceBook
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2010, 06:32:06 am »
The area that flooded was a basin, where a city and a few villages were. A river changed course or lake broke it's borders, flooding into
this basin, thus turning it into a flood basin after many generations of not being one. There was a merchant who shipped goods to other cities using the waterways. He had a monopoly on the shipping of barges of goods, he saw the signs of the flood and set about outfitting his fleet of barges to save his family and close friends, and livilehood. 
-The shadows connect us all-

onishadowolf

  • Weres
  • Realized Monster
  • *
  • Posts: 1473
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • FaceBook
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2010, 06:50:29 am »
The reason this story or stories like it spread like wildfire to other cultures. Is because each culture lived through the story by making the same mistake of estabilishing in a flood basin. It's fertile ground, great for farming and villages and cities usually spring up nearby. So there you have it. And we still haven't learned, because look at New Orleans and St. Louis.
-The shadows connect us all-

Dreamer

  • Necromancers
  • Monstrous Imp
  • *
  • Posts: 35
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • What?
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2010, 09:32:49 am »
OLO! Damn.

What I have to say here too.

What I want to know what is the different between Clean and Unclean?

Are Clean animals are like Domestic animals and Herbivores and vice versa?
What about insects and other things?

Also, I heard this from my father which he took from his uncles and his uncles father and goes on.

"Noah had a cousin, he is so big that his leg stretched to the deepest of the sea, his food was the wales of the deep seas. As Noah was ordered by God to make an Ark, so to fit many animals, he had to get one of the largest tree to carve it and make into a boat fit enough for all the animals. So he Noah sent his cousin, and said to him that this going to be a long voyage a 3 days road to the deepest sea, the cousin said on what he will eat on the way. Noah made three Breads, one for the voyage, one at the time of arrival at the tree and the last for coming back. So, his cousin set into that journey, even the deepest of sea was reaching up to his neck. He traveled about a day and so, he reached to the giant tree, he just pulled from it's roots, and brought it back. What revitalized him was the bread, a one single bread was like a huge wale meal.
He returned the tree back and Noah and his followers craved the tree into the ship"

And that's how I heard it.

Anything else?


There is nothing here. Move along.

jordyn

  • Mod
  • Realized Monster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2617
  • Karma: +20/-22
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2010, 03:33:49 pm »
clean animals are those that are herbivores, creatures that would eat the same things we do, unclean are carrion feeders, fish without scales, cloven hoofs etc...the bible it seems has a rather extensive list as to what can and can't be eaten.

you do not eat dead things that live off off death and garbage, seems like pretty basic wisdom to me, besides a vulture roast with a side of shrimp just sounds wrong to me.
"The world that God made is inherently comprised of relationships, symmetries, analogia, anagogy, poetic wisdom. Thus is the language of symbolism."

Polaris

  • Young Beast
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Doras feasa fiafraí
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2010, 08:52:45 pm »
Sin seems to be a more personal thing, what we feel guilty for or what others are ashamed of us for is usually what is classed as 'sin'. The meaning has changed over time because the idea of sin is such a personal one and like most personal beliefs it is influenced by culture, upbringing and experience.

The bible uses symbolism to 'teach'. It uses historical contexts, terms and ideas because otherwise its general 'message' wouldn't be so easily interpreted by the public, who the writers of the bible sought to influence. This also partly explains why, in modern times, the bible is becoming more and more misinterpreted.

So maybe a more fitting question would be, what does the story symbolise? Rather than, how could this be possible?

As to the original question. What this could possibly say about God's chosen family is that none is without sin. How much power we lend to that part of ourselves is all that matters in the eyes of 'God'. (Purely religious, probably christian perspective however we are talking about a lesson of the Bible here)
She says that all energy is only borrowed; at some point you have to return it.

Polaris

  • Young Beast
  • **
  • Posts: 76
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Doras feasa fiafraí
Re: Naoh and Sin
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2010, 04:39:54 am »
What do you mean by validate bigotry? Do you mean that natural disasters can prove a person is right in his beliefs or am I misinterpreting you?

You're probably right, the Old Testament is more of a history book than the New Testament. However, the Old Testament was the part of the Bible that was written in order to validate Jesus' (or whoever else was meant to be God's son on Earth) position as a "Messiah' when he was finally born in the New Testament. Maybe it doesn't tell the history of the Jews as much as the history of the people that God chose to follow his son in the future and there is a difference as most of the Jewish people didn't. Who knows though, it's been mistranslated through summarization etc and in general misinterpreted for too long now.

But yes, the flood talked about in the Old Testament was meant to cleanse the world of sin. Lets say that God told Noah to bring 7 pairs of all clean animals, 2 pairs of the unclean animals and his family with him.

If we take into account that God gave only humans free will, not animals, we could assume that he believed it would be 'unfair/unjust' to kill beings that did not choose how they survived. So God saved all the animals. Maybe what saved Noah was the fact that he chose to walk with God, despite free will. In which case, it's not a matter of any specific sins that condemned the rest of mankind but the absence of them in Noah?

As for your underlying question, if the story is used to validate a certain act then does that make it more than just a historical account and more of a tool? I'm not saying that every symbolic/didactic story is conjured out of thin air, it could be real events simply selected because they 'proved' a certain point, this would still make them symbolic.
She says that all energy is only borrowed; at some point you have to return it.