[Moneyman]

Note: This is not a thread asking "howz do i become a werwolf?". This is a very serious(well..serious to me anyway) matter.

I really have no idea how to go about asking this, so I'll just state it simply and clearly. I also did not know which forum to post this in since it is a very vague/general request.

I was born and raised a Jehovah's Witness, I was extremely devout and was heavily involved in the religion. I gave talks(mini sermons) in front of a hundred people when I was 14. I argued with people in "the ministry", everyone from priests to atheists. I did this for twenty years, and that all changed ten months ago. Amongst other things, I came across passages in the bible that showed me beyond a doubt that it was a lie. I understand there are those on this site that still believe in the Abrahamic religions, so I won't spend too much time on the topic.

I quickly abandoned all previous notions of what I thought was truth, I rejected all that I had been led to believe through the bible and through the religion itself. Although I now had no idea what reality was like, I was eager to find out. Although I already had an interest in science and history, my previous ideals had caused me to look at things in a distorted way. I've spent the last few months exploring life and my new found freedom. Although I have busied myself with various things such as a college course, career, making new friends and the like, not a day has gone by were I haven't been bothered by my own thoughts about the truth.

Every day I think about life, death, truth, and untruth. Whether its about science/religion/morality/existence, I cannot forget the question I must have answered:

"Is life nothing more then a product of chaos? Is everything we think, feel, and do, a meaningless pursuit made vain by death, the end of all consciousness?"

Many people refuse to answer this question and preoccupy themselves with there vain lives. Eat, drink, play, crap, hump, die. They push these thoughts to the back of their minds, using ignorance to drown out the horrifying truth that everything is meaningless if all ends at death.

I cannot live in ignorance, I cannot sit on the fence mentally, I must know the truth about life after death. Blind faith is not enough, I need to KNOW the truth. Life after death is only the first question I need help answering. It was the most important, so I thought I'd ask that one first.

The rest of the questions can be summarized very plainly, I wish to learn everything I can about the occult.

Please be assured that I approach this with the utmost seriousness. I am not a fool who watches TV and fancies himself a vampire/werewolf/wiccan/magician. This is not a game, and I am not here to play. Few grasp the significance of the occult, and its implications.

For the past nine months, I have more or less been cautiously and skeptically researching the occult. I have looked at a variety of different sources, many of them more then likely useless. I made sure to take everything with a grain of salt, and to always remember that the only absolute truth is that there is nothing absolute. I tried hard to look for an actual person who was involved in the occult, but was unable to find any.

By chance(or not?), I stumbled across your website Wednesday while doing research on the exorcism of Anneliese Michel. I quickly read through the site and found I had finally stumbled upon a community of serious occultists. I quickly decided to register...although I hit an unexpected speed bump(IP marked as spam)...and that brings us to this thread Ive made.

For now, I have a very hazy outline of what I should be doing. Several of the sources I've read put heavy emphasis on meditation, dreaming, and eventually the astral projection. I am still extremely new to all of this, all I have is a dream journal and some attempts at basic meditation.

If you can provide ANY advice, guidance, tips, warnings, or information, I would be very grateful. Don't be shy, ask any questions. If I feel uncomfortable answering them(which I doubt), I'll just PM the answer to you.

Thank you,

Moneyman

EDIT: Came across this meditation thread, http://www.monstrous.com/forum/index.php?topic=9502.0, thanks to Matthew for posting it.

[LeXtruX]

I'dd say that most of your question can be answered by reading the stated topics other than that... do research, ask around and don't do anything that feels uncomfertable... ^^
edit: also, don't search paranormal meanings behind things you can't always immediatly explain: you might want to consider a normal explanation for it rather than ghosts and such... keep this in mind in your research and try-outs for techniques of meditation/projections/... and you may go a long way. Really! If people investigate something they often see it occuring everywhere without it always being what they think it is.

[TeteoInan]

I agree with everything Lex said.

"Is life nothing more then a product of chaos? Is everything we think, feel, and do, a meaningless pursuit made vain by death, the end of all consciousness?"

I have 20 something pages in a notebook I wrote recently about all of that...
"Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust" and "Light at the End of the Tunnel"
PM if you're interested, and I'll type some of it up for you.

For the rest of it, just ask your questions.
If you can't find it, or well... like me are sometimes too lazy to go hunting without a clue where to start...
Make a topic, post in this one, PM a member or Mod or whatever.

[Moneyman]

edit: also, don't search paranormal meanings behind things you can't always immediatly explain: you might want to consider a normal explanation for it rather than ghosts and such.

Point taken. I make sure to criticize anything I read, and I make sure any subconscious desire for something to be true does not cloud my judgement.

For example, I read and reviewed "The Afterlife Experiments", which was a book by a rather prestigious doctor which attempted to prove mediums could contact the dead. Even before I read the skeptics response, I was already spotting holes in the "research". For one thing, the mediums repeatedly mentioned complex images being "shown" to them, such as a church on the hillside, yet the dead seemed unable to give them anything but the first letter of someones name. A more lengthy critique can be found here: http://www.csicop.org/si/show/how_not_to_test_mediums_critiquing_the_afterlife_experiments

Although it proved worthless for occult information, it did prove useful for spotting fakers and showing another example of fraud/foolishness by prestigious scientists. Currently, my biggest worry is that if I am not careful, my own subconscious desire/ego/thoughts may cloud my judgement when I start delving into things like dreams and meditation.

Question 1:

How can I make sure that what I'm seeing is genuine, and not an invention of my own imagination?

Any advice would be appreciated.

------------------------------------
Question 2:
(Please note, Christians will find this quite offensive, I do not wish to insult others beliefs so please do not take it personally)

There is another matter which I need to inquire about. It involves my old religion, the Jehovah's Witnesses.

When I used to read the bible, and pray, I felt a sort of personality. It was anything from holy though, it matched what I read about "Jehovah" in the bible. Cold, vindictive, egotistical, and judgemental, I felt this sort of personality develop within me.

The bible(and the religion) made me into a misanthrope. I grew to hate the world around me and viewed them all as ungrateful sinners unworthy of life. Every time I read the bible and prayed, that feeling was reinforced. Although a part of me said it was wrong to feel that way, another part of me said that it was justified. I saw God as a powerful, judgmental being who would wipe out the scum of the Earth in his fury...and I reveled in it all. How else was I to accept that God would destroy all who did not obey him(as the religion teaches)?

There were other odd incidents that occurred to me and others in the religion. Most of them involved the door to door work, which is basically a recruitment drive. Although it never happened to me, I know of at least four other people who visited a persons house when they were contemplating suicide. Other instances include the people calling on others when they were praying for guidance, or witnesses suddenly feeling the need to randomly preach to a person who was receptive.

At first I dismissed these as chance/false stories, and I dismissed the personality I spoke of as nothing more then the natural reaction one gets when reading the Bible(all of it, not just the fluffy parts). However, I've started to wonder if there is more to it then that. If spirits/extra-dimensional beings/gods do exist, perhaps they gain something from people worshiping them. Perhaps there is more then simple human ignorance that drives such religious extremism.

Whether he exists or not, there is no doubt in my mind that the God of the Bible, Yahweh/Jehovah, is evil. He is a genocidal baby slaying(1 Samuel 15:3) hypocrite who punishes people for the crimes of others(2 Samuel 24), and who slaughters anyone who doesn't give him absolute devotion(too many examples to list). He is egotistical, greedy, and domineering.

My question is, are these religions mostly a human invention, or are there forces that purposely use them to manipulate people for their own benefit? If so, does anyone have any experience or knowledge about the forces behind the Jehovah's Witnesses?

I ask this because if such beings exist, I may have been in contact with one. Nothing amazing such as communication or visions, but I most certainly felt SOME sort of influence on my mind. I am what they call an "Apostate", a devout member of the religion who turns against it. I vocally oppose the religion, and years of study in the bible and the arts of speech, teaching, and social manipulation, have turned me into a rather dangerous opponent. The things I know can destroy people's faith, they unmask Jehovah for what he really is.

If there is a force behind the religion, then that being is no doubt VERY PISSED OFF with me. I was an upstanding member of the congregation, and I gave talks and interviews in front of 700 people. Now, I'm vehemently opposed to the religion, feeling a sort of personal vendetta against it. I think I've already caused quite a stir with some of the people I spoke with.

I fear that this being may try and use me as some sort of "Judas Iscariot" example, someone who suffered a terrible fate after leaving the religion. Stories of this sort circulate throughout the religion, basically anyone who suffers anything bad after leaving the religion is believed to have suffered because of leaving.

Of course, I could just be talking out of my ass, which is the more logical conclusion. What do you guys think?

[TeteoInan]

"How can I make sure that what I'm seeing is genuine, and not an invention of my own imagination?"

Faith, mostly.
If you question something, play the elimination game.
Take every possibility, no matter how unlikely it may seem, and see if "This" could really be just "That".

Just... off the top of my head, anyways.


"What do you guys think?"

I think I like your mind.

[Angelus]

]My question is, are these religions mostly a human invention, or are there forces that purposely use them to manipulate people for their own benefit? If so, does anyone have any experience or knowledge about the forces behind the Jehovah's Witnesses?

These are my personal views and are in no way the views of Monstrous and as this is my personal view it is not up for debate of whether it is right or wrong. These are my beliefs and nothing more.

The religions are thousands of years old with men changing the rules and regulations every century or so. My personal thought is that they are truth built on lies built on truth. Three layers. Allow me to explain.

Layer One. Truth.

Lets start with the creation. Did god create man. Evolution says no. "Screw you Creationism!" it screams from the rooftops. But, Take it all as a metaphor....... Maybe. Lets take a look.
"Let there be Light" could this be the big bang?
Adam and Eve, are these two people a metaphor for the first evolved humans. The fruit of knowledge a step in our mental evolution? Being cast out of Eden a metaphor for the "Garden" refusing to sustain us anymore due to our population rise? We were "cast out" due to lack of food and spread across the globe in order to feed our families.

Now let us talk about the big man himself. God. The powers that be, whether you call them God, Yahweh, Allah, or whatever, used to be more involved with the earth a long time ago. That's why all the stories of miracles and magic are all from hundreds to thousands of years ago, when God, nature, the sun and all creation was one and the same. As time went buy the religions were exaggerated. Did god flood the earth? No. But their is evidence of a great flood in Babylonian mythology. Did it happen in one area of the world? Much evidence points to many different areas, the main place the Ark is usually said to have rested so must still be is in Turkey at Mount Ararat. Was one man told by the Higher Powers to build a life saving vessel? The amount of tales of men being guided by a Higher Power are infinite.

Layer Two. Lies.

Let's start with the smaller lies. The misunderstandings, if you will. Gods Wrath. Bad things happening that couldn't be explained. Like a meteor strike wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah. In those times only the Gods were believed to hold the kind of power to rain fire and destroy an entire city, let alone two. What had these people done to deserve this fate? They must have angered The Divine. It must have been bad. Let's think of bad things they must have done. Wait a minute, the concept of "good" and "evil" is still a bit new. Maybe we should throw in some things that we think might be bad. Like men trying to breed by putting it the wrong hole. It doesn't work so we obviously aren't meant to do it. Hey wasn't one of those towns called Sodom? Lets call that "Sodomy"!
This seems to be when we decided that God wasn't all nice and wouldn't stand for our disobedience. So we made up rules that we should follow to stay on his good side. Then Moses was given the Ten Commandments. I don't have an opinion on these as most are rather obvious. If they were genuinely handed by the Powers that Be then I think the "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods in My presence..." bit was maybe added by Moses or the original authors of the Holy Books.

We then reached a point when people used Higher Powers as an excuse to do wrong deeds. Men going to war and invading and murdering because"God" told them too or just deciding that "God" is on their side. This is pretty much every war that has ever been. Why would God have one nation destroy another when he could "Sodom and Gomorrah" their asses himself?

Layer Three. Truth.

In modern day thanks to science and people researching all religions as a living we are seeing all the same stories in different religions. Seeing the same men and stories with different names and places attached to them. Does this prove that these things may have actually happened? Probably. Removing the exaggerations from the stories and putting modern understanding on them leads us to find which of these things may be factual, historical accounts. I already showed you the metaphors in Genesis. Then there is the archeological evidence for Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the historical Jesus himself and much more.

In conclusion, religion is like a game of Chinese Whispers. As it has been passed down it has been morphed by the men who told it. Changing it by accident, for self gain or any other reason. In the modern day we now have global communication and scientific analysis, this has given us the ability to look at the evidence from all sides, check it against other accounts of the same events and come up with more accurate conclusions. Science hasn't killed religion. It has cleansed it. Making it purer and removing the stains and tarnishes made by the people who saw fit to lie in the name of the Higher Beings. The Holy Books, like all tales should be read and looked on with common sense and not taken on at face value. If I told people that I s**te gold and pish rainbows, would they believe me? No? Would they believe me if I wrote it down and had someone publish it in another thousand years? Maybe.

[ravinclaw]

Moneyman, welcome to Monstrous. I say that often, but truley mean it seldomly. In your case I mean it.

So many questions, so little time.    It may serve you to look into the religion known as Gnosticism. A glance will not be enough. I am sure there is truth to be had there. Perhaps not total understanding of everything, but truth none the less.

Religion. It is centered around God/Gods who are perfect or close to it, then writen by men who are far from perfection.

I look forward to conversing with you when time permits.

[Moneyman]

@ravinclaw:

Thank you, its my pleasure to be here.

Gnosticism has come up frequently when I was doing research, but usually it was just briefly mentioned, usually a simple overview of it. Though what I read was very interesting, and it seems to me that a basic understanding of Gnosticism is crucial to understanding the Occult, or at the very least, Occult history.

The term "occult" is vague and one I probably use too much due to my lack of education. Hopefully, as I gain more knowledge, I can hope to use more specific language. The order in which I've asked questions is influenced more so from my own personal interest. They probably aren't the questions I should concern myself with right now if I want to learn more. I'll probably read through the site some more and take notes/bookmark pages.

There is one small question I wouldn't mind answered though. While researching the occult, I downloaded a video entitled "The Soul Travelers". It covered a lot of material about the occult, and I wanted to make a thread about it here so I could get some feedback about its authenticity or accuracy.

My question is...were should I make such a thread? I don't really know which sub forum fits best for it.

were should I make such a thread? I don't really know which sub forum fits best for it.

I think it would best fit here:

http://www.monstrous.com/forum/index.php?board=44.0

Gotta question for you, and really, it's the only one that matters: Have you figured out what you WANT to do? What are you good at? Find the intersection between those 2 questions, and you will have your answer.

PS Try watching a flick with Billy Crystal and Jack Palance in it, I believe it's called "City Slickers". Palance has some good advice in it that I think would apply to you.

[Moneyman]

Gotta question for you, and really, it's the only one that matters: Have you figured out what you WANT to do? What are you good at?

I want what everybody wants...EVERYTHING

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfrWchX5rAU

@Moneyman, I've sent you a private message - what I've said may lead to immediate advice & help in this particular subject from those of us who are experienced in these matters. Let me know.

Wow. Is the Jehovah's bible slightly differant than Baptist? I was raised Baptist, and funny enough we are pretty much questioning the same things about the big man. But, when it comes to the number of differant religions that won't like what people like us say, I think I have you beat. The way I'm thinking is that whatever divine being that founded the three religions of the middle east is messed up. Course I haven't read much about the other two, but from what I can tell from the old testiment that baptists are given, the Jewish Yahweh pretty much told them that they're better than everyone else, and he was all for destroying everyone that questioned him. Then around the time Jesus came in, he was all about peace and forgiveness. And 500 years after Christianity was founded he started up Islam (cause it is possible that Allah is the same as Yahweh) and, either accidentally or on purpose, set christians and muslims at each others throuts (you would think a seinor would know how to spell that.) But if he is there, Yahweh is one of a few things, sever split personality, or a real a** hole that likes messing with us, and several others that I can't put into words right now. And if I offended anyone with this remember, it's my opinion, my family doesn't know I feel this way (I'll probably tell them when my a** of a little brother can't preach to me about how I'm wrong and tell me stuff he heard the local preacher say a thousand times) so don't blame the folks, and pretty much what Angelus said.

Damn I talked alot, really need to find a better hobbie.

Interesting, a politically and religiously loaded rant, and not a single person has said anything about it. The reason I posted this was to see if there was anyone even checking the site.  Anyone want to comment? I'll be happy if it is just to yell at me. Anything to prove that the site isn't dead and I'm not just talking to ghosts.

[davidn13]

I know it's been awhile since I've really gotten involved in anything, but I've been keeping weekly tabs on the site, just in case something interesting popped up-which it inevitably will on here.

 @Wolfman- If Yahweh has multiple personalities, does that make "him" more than one god? Personally I think that whatever powers that be don't take a very active role in our lives, similar to how you'd look at an ant farm. They give us just enough to keep going, but the power of free will overrules any divine rules. No idea whats up for an afterlife though-some physical world things are complicated enough without an afterlife getting involved.

@Moneyman- Good to hear that you question things-faith included. One of my biggest problems with most people is either being to lazy to question, or substituting faith for reason. Like I've told everyone I know, what you believe is up too you, just as long as long as it's real faith and not ignorance.
So kudos to you and whatever faith you choose, or none at all-as long as you make informed decisions about it.
(I know, not super helpful, but I leave the big questions to people who know what they're talking about.)