Monstrous
Monstropedia => Forbidden Archaeology => Topic started by: oldbill4823 on December 10, 2008, 09:51:27 AM
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From the telegraph Newspaper UK 9/12/08
'Jesus was born in June', astronomers claim
Astronomers have calculated that Christmas should be in June, by charting the appearance of the 'Christmas star' which the Bible says led the three Wise Men to Jesus.
They found that a bright star which appeared over Bethlehem 2,000 years ago pinpointed the date of Christ's birth as June 17 rather than December 25.
The researchers claim the 'Christmas star' was most likely a magnificent conjunction of the planets Venus and Jupiter, which were so close together they would have shone unusually brightly as a single "beacon of light" which appeared suddenly.
If the team is correct, it would mean Jesus was a Gemini, not a Capricorn as previously believed.
Australian astronomer Dave Reneke used complex computer software to chart the exact positions of all celestial bodies and map the night sky as it would have appeared over the Holy Land more than 2,000 years ago.
It revealed a spectacular astronomical event around the time of Jesus's birth.
Mr Reneke says the wise men probably interpreted it as the sign they had been waiting for, and they followed the 'star' to Christ's birthplace in a stable in Bethlehem, as described in the Bible.
Generally accepted research has placed the nativity to somewhere between 3BC and 1AD.
Using the St Matthew's Gospel as a reference point, Mr Reneke pinpointed the planetary conjunction, which appeared in the constellation of Leo, to the exact date of June 17 in the year 2BC.
The astronomy lecturer, who is also news editor of Sky and Space magazine, said: "We have software that can recreate exactly the night sky as it was at any point in the last several thousand years.
"We used it to go back to the time when Jesus was born, according to the Bible.
"Venus and Jupiter became very close in the the year 2BC and they would have appeared to be one bright beacon of light.
"We are not saying this was definitely the Christmas star - but it is the strongest explanation for it of any I have seen so far.
"There's no other explanation that so closely matches the facts we have from the time.
"This could well have been what the three wise men interpreted as a sign. They could easily have mistaken it for one bright star.
"Astronomy is such a precise science, we can plot exactly where the planets were, and it certainly seems this is the fabled Christmas star."
Mr Reneke, formerly the chief lecturer at the Port Macquarie Observatory in New South Wales, added: "December is an arbitrary date we have accepted but it doesn't really mean that is when it happened.
"This is not an attempt to decry religion. It's really backing it up as it shows there really was a bright object appearing in the East at the right time.
"Often when we mix science with religion in this kind of forum, it can upset people. In this case, I think this could serve to reinforce people's faith."
Previous theories have speculated the star was a supernova - an exploding star - or even a comet. But Mr Reneke says by narrowing the date down, the technology has provided the most compelling explanation yet.
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If the whole recent "political correctness about holidays" junk makes June 17 then heads are gonna roll, literally :x *sharpens his sweeny todd style razor blade"
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they only have christmas in december because of jewish and pagan holidays. they wanted people to convert. They really didn't know when Jesus was born and if you read scriptures carefully it reveals times because of harvests and stars.
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What?? You mean religion would use subterfuge to make people believe something which isn't exactly true. But wouldn't that make them liars?
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I've some to thinking that the moral lessons in the bible were just that, advice. And the main character, jesus, is just that a character. He may have been based off a real person, i don't know. None of us would ever really know. The bible has been translated so many times over the years by countless people, that made some of them got a wild hair and changed it. Cryptologists(sp) these days are so obsessed with it, that we've begun to pick out hidden messages out of the bible. What if the original writer didn't mean to put those there, and we are just over thinking this whole thing?
Just something to think about and like i said none of never really know. I guess that's were faith comes in doesn't it?
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Just something to think about and like i said none of never really know. I guess that's were faith comes in doesn't it?
Precisely! I want to ask a question. Who wrote the bible originally?
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I do not know.
Do you?
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Yes they placed the holidays because they really didn't know when the actual dates were so had to pick logical days: therefore days that other pagan and jewish holidays were located.
Also the bible was written by hundreds of people even down to the break ups of the passages. For Hebrew Bible for instance it was literally 'sewn' together because it was on animal hide which eventually deterioates. Also the texts were rewritten by scribes who sometimes when writting for long periods of time would get tired miss something add something or change something. Also these scribes were rewriting the torah in different languages or just different dialects. Like aramaic (the language Jesus spoke) has 3 basic varients. So does Hebrew because it has early (picto) middle late and today is modern. Also some of these words overlap because in older Hebrew there are no vowels!!! Modern hebrew is the one that uses vowels. And every word has a root word and can have an entirely different meaning or multiple definitions in certain contexts. So if a scribe had to base it off of what they thought it meant it can get changed many times. Thats why archaeologists have such a hard time looking at these texts becuase there are so many different varients. Par exampla look up the midrashim or targumim. Or just look up Legends of the Jews which was complied in the past century when he went to different Jewish communities around the world and got different stories from their oral and writen torahs.
A great example would be the discrepancy between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2:2. Gen 1 through 2:1 is litterally written by one person while the rest of Gen 2 is written by another person. Gen 1 from the babylonian period while Gen 2 is 500 years older roughly about 1000 B.C. therefore Gen 2 is older than Gen 1.
I do have to admit that the christain bible (aka new testament) is a lot easier to trace because it seems to stick to one author (maybe two in some cases) in each book.
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I want to ask a question. Who wrote the bible originally?
If I remember correctly, the first Books of the Tanakh (Old Testament) were written during the last 20 years of the Babylonian Captivity by Jewish Priests who were trying to get as many Jews to go back to Israel as possible. At least half of the Jewish people (especially those under 30) didn't want to leave the comfort and stability of Babylon to slog through the desert, and start the hard work of rebuilding the broken infrastructure of their nation. Not to mention probably not having the same amount of choices about what they could or could not do with their lives. The Tanakh was written as an way to drum up nationalistic and religious pride, and to get as many people as possible to leave with them. The first Book to be written, the oldest, was the Book of Job. And you have to realize that almost the entire Book of Genesis is Babylonian myths, with Jewish cultural and religious slants. Many of the 'demons' mentioned in the bible, for example, were Babylonian Goddesses and Gods. Asherah = Ishtar/Astarte Beelzebub = Ba'al Zebub (Lord of Zebub (a city-state))
If I'm wrong , please correct me.
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Christianity have moved holidays around since they started. The whole "Jesus being born in June" thing is very old news. It will be forgotten about and rediscovered again in another 10 years and made a big deal of AGAIN. Truth is when Jesus was born isnt important. Yes Christianity has lied about everything they have ever stated and contridicted itself so many times its funny and, yes, they changed holidays to line up with the holidays of earlier religions just so they could say to people "See, our religion is the same as yours, you just have the wee bits wrong like not worshiping just one God." Its the messages that count. Same as all religions. They all seem to tell the same story of god/gods, a healer or representative sent by god and how he was met with fear and uncertanty. As you may have noticed I was raised catholic. So Christmas, The Winter Solstice, Dong zhi, Yule, Diwali, Hanukkah or whatever you celibrate, doesnt matter how it started, its just there to be enjoyed. You wanna talk about church lies! Easter, Rabbits dont lay eggs, let alone chocolate ones. lol.
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So in a nut shell, the good book was written by people, not god. So, on to my next question. "What makes the bible ( or any other religious text for that matter ) correct" What I mean by that is, why do so many christians follow it, as if it were the word of god. God sent us his word once before ( Which is what I continue to live by to this day ), but I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere that he said "I want you to write a book, and include all of this.."
And before I get bombarded with hate mail, its just a question, one to which I look forward to an answewr.
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"What makes the bible ( or any other religious text for that matter ) correct" What I mean by that is, why do so many christians follow it, as if it were the word of god.
Well, there are a couple of ways to answer that question. Some may even seem offensive, none is meant.
(Please note that I use the word 'Priest' to mean figures of religious authority in various religions; and 'Book' or 'Holy Book' to mean a codified doctrine of any religion. I am not singling out any particular religion, as the following relates to religion in general)
1) Most, if not all organized religions, have to have some sort of hook to maintain control of their adherents. That hook is FEAR. Fear of Eternal Damnation, fear of being left out, fear of being different, fear of the unknown. Religion itself started as an outgrowth of Spirituality (a questioning of what the World is, how it works, how the Self relates to the World and how the World relates to the Self). Religion came when people of similar thought came together and started to experiment with ways (rituals) as a group to appease the Spirits of Natural Forces, as well as influence them, either passively (prayer) or actively (magic/mysticism). Over time (probably after some sort of crisis) the priests of the various religions began to convince their peoples that God/the Gods were angry with them and that God/the Gods would only them (the Priests) because they are Spiritually clean(er) than the general populace. After solemn contemplation within the Temple (and out of sight of the people), the Priests would come out of the temple and proclaim that God/the Gods told them that He/They were angry and would only have Communication with the Priests. The Priests from then on would 'proclaim God's/the Gods Will' to the people. Carving/writing those proclamations down served to lock in the Priests control of the people. From then on power seemed (to the un-Initiated) to flow thusly: Divine>High Priest>Priest>populace.
2) People want stability and certainty. Most people want Absolute, Immutable Answers. A Holy Book appears to give them that. Which brings us back to Fear again. Spirituality means facing the Unknown, without a set script. Oh, there are general guides. But it's like being dropped in the middle of a forest , blind-folded, with a map marking major trails, a broken compass and no idea of where you are. The beginning of a Spiritual Journey is always about facing the Truth of who you are (good, bad and ugly), taking responsibility for your actions, changing the negative aspects, strengthening the good aspects, and being a decent Human being. It can be pretty scary. People like the Illusion of the World that they know, it requires little thought or effort. It's like most of people are running on auto-pilot. After facing your Self, you have to face you Fears. Some are afraid of other people that are not like them, different. These people would rather poison their lives (and the lives other peoples)with hate and blame others for their own shortcomings, than find out what is lacking within themselves that causes them to have these Fears. Most others have a more generalized fear of the Unknown. There is ease, comfort and familiarity in being told What Is. The Fear is that to question what you have been indoctrinated to think since infancy, what many generations have upheld as Absolute Unquestionable Truth, would literally cause the End of their World (-view). All would be Chaos, and they would be condemned to Damnation for all Eternity. So they have to do whatever The Book (of whatever religion) tells them, because they can't trust themselves to know what is Right on their own, and apparently neither does/do God/the Gods. Why else would there be Priests and a Book that tells them what and how to think.
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Broken down you are saying that most people need others to tell them what is right so they wont forever burn in hell, so they follow a book, written by man, in search of absolution.
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What I'm saying is people need others to tell them what is right so they don't have to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Not wanting to burn in hell is a motivating factor, but not the root cause.
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What I'm saying is people need others to tell them what is right so they don't have to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.
So then people are morally lazy?
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Yep, oh wait you said morally...not just lazy. *Slowly steps away from the podium and then runs*
Think of it like this, religion was like a simple or first form of government. So in essence it took away your worries of security and since it is so hard for some people to make moral decisions,etc. Religion took up the torch, with the rituals came more cleanliness and less diease and less crime because of retribution. See how it works.
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I agree. And moral laziness is a symptom of Spiritual laziness. Selfishness also enters into it, as one of the negative aspects of the Self. That's yet another reason that people don't trust themselves, they have been told since infancy that they are evil, sinful and selfish and that they need Priestly Guidance to not Burn For All Eternity. Having no truly Spiritual training, they therefore see Human Nature as inherently evil and selfish and the words of the Priests/Book as the only route to Redemption/Salvation.
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I see now. Humainity is a morally lazy, selfish creature with out enough self strength to make decisions for themselves. Wait, sorta sounds like a bunch of sheep dosen't it. No wonder they are called a flock. Thank whatever created me that I am strong enough to need no such leadership. 8-)
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*<:) Well, you also have to keep in mind that the majority of Humanity is young, Spiritually speaking. The Spiritual equivalent of mid- to late-adolescence. Earth is a School, and most people are still learning. Haven't you ever wondered why the World seems like a magnified version of High School?
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Nope, if someone tries to play a high school they tend to regret it. No, not physically, most would not enjoy that experience, but with words. See people who still think they are in high school are simple opponents, and bad on me I know, but I have no sympathy for their lack of ability in living in the real world. And no I will do nothing to help them be a better person. If a person needs help in that way, then they are a lost cause.
The young can mature quickly if, and only if, the parent would stop coddling them, and make/let them grow up. Being a good parent and a responsible one are two different things after all. Childhood and innocence have their place, but we all need to shed them sooner or later, and for humanities sake, the sooner the better.
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Ah, but that's the thing. It's a matter of scale. Take the Nazis or the KKK. If you look at their underlying motivations, you'll find little difference between them and those who went on the killing-spree at Columbine. Discontent that they were being bullied by the popular kids/League of Nations. Hatred towards those they saw as 'privileged' and successful, i.e., academically gifted/Jews. Seeing other groups as holding them back and standing between them and their goals/Divine Rights, i.e., gays, women, anyone who doesn't think like them.
Also, the high school mentality plays out in corporations, academia, government, religion. Scale.
BUT, at some point EVERYONE (even you) has had help. I'm sure there have been times when someone took the time to show you what you were doing wrong, and how to remedy it...even if it was when you something hurtful to someone else and didn't realize it until it was pointed out to you. We're talking school on a global scale. Humanity is a young race, with many thousands of millenia to go. This doesn't excuse horrible behavior in the least, but it does give a different perspective and understanding as to why.
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BUT, at some point EVERYONE (even you) has had help
Wrong. I am where I am today by my own hand and no one elses, no hand outs, no assistance. The day I can not stand on my own two feet and face the world is the day I die. If I can do, so can others, that is if they stop whining and crying about how bad life is and start doing something about it.
I'm sure there have been times when someone took the time to show you what you were doing wrong, and how to remedy it...even if it was when you something hurtful to someone else and didn't realize it until it was pointed out to you
Again wrong. I learned all of lifes lessons the hard way, by living life. If I have hurt someone, well then so be it. If it was accidental, I would apologize, but I rarely do anything accidentally. ( But what about your father, surely he.... No he didn't. His and my philosopy is simple. We are all responsible for our own actions, and it is us to the person to decide what is right or wrong, we all learn by doing and experiencing, not by sitting around waiting for someone to tell us what is right and wrong.
Which brings me to the Nazis/KKK. These are groups led by people who had/have a political agenda. They find their sheep, manipulate them, and let them loose on society. While wrong in their thoughts, these organizations would have never gotten anywhere without leadership. Hell, organizations such as these are nothing more than the dark side of religion ( which in itself is a politically driven animal ).
Now :focus: if you want to continue this discussion then I think we should make a new thread, I know I asked the question, but in this thread we have strayed far afield. Oh and this is a discussion, let nothing I have said lead you to believe that I feel any animosity to you or your thoughts/beliefs/ideas. Matter of fact, I am thoughly enjoying myself. :wink:
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I never thought you held any animosity towards me. Everything is a matter of perspective. Ours just happens to be different.
But, as you said :focus: .
Years ago, the Vatican (quietly) admitted that by their own research Jesus was probably born between mid-May to late June. It wasn't widely circulated among the Christian press.
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Ofcourse not, it would have hurt their credibility within the masses, and credibilty affords trust, even if it is blind.
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Very true. it's like how Catholics just accept Papal Infallibility as historical fact, when that doctrine has only existed since 1870. People in the Middle Ages would have laughed their heads off (behind closed doors) at the very suggestion.
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Forget the middle ages, we do it now a days as well.
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:-D True. I just meant from a historical perspective. Like Pope Leo X, who appointed his two sons (aged 14 and 20 respectively) as Cardinals. Many mistake blind faith for Faith , and Dogma for Truth.
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The coniving whom lead the blind. And here we go getting off of topic again, isn't there anything religion wont complicate?
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I can't think of a single thing. Those in power have made sure that it permeates every culture and country in some way.
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Religion is folklore with mass following. Thats all. Everyone in this site is here because of a connection thats attached to monsters, demons and falklore. People should not laugh at someone for believing in what they do, even if science tells us its false. If that was the case then half the people here should be laughed out of town for belief in or that they are the creatures they claim to be. The catholic church is full of flaws that we can point out but we can also use biology, chemistry and physics to prove that werewolves can't exist or psychic abilities are laughable fiction. And as laughable as catholic doctrine may be, it does tell some truth, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." John 8:7, and "Do not judge, or you too will be judged." Matthew 7:1.
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At their core, every religion basically says the same things : take care of your own flaws before you look at anothers ; treat others the way you want to be treated; help others; you get back what you give...etc. It's when things branch off from there, that we gt into trouble.
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So in a nut shell, the good book was written by people, not god. So, on to my next question. "What makes the bible ( or any other religious text for that matter ) correct" What I mean by that is, why do so many christians follow it, as if it were the word of god. God sent us his word once before ( Which is what I continue to live by to this day ), but I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere that he said "I want you to write a book, and include all of this.."
And before I get bombarded with hate mail, its just a question, one to which I look forward to an answewr.
thats because God didn't say to write all of it down. He said these are my laws and abide them. I love it when people say it was written by God because it wasn't it was written by Rabbi's and their scribes and it was hundreds of people. I really love it when people try to say that certain books in the Hebrew Bible are narrowed down to just certain people. Yes the books Matthew through Revelation were written by one or two people per book but the TaNak has many discripancies between paragraphs let alone between books. They all try to mimic each other so that it seems consistant but come on we all know Moses couldn't have written Exodus because it talks about his death and things that happened after his death. Yes a lot of the texts were written in the Babylonian exile but the older stories were already written or orally passed and finally the people were scared to loose their heritage so wrote things down and compiled them. With this and a few hundred more years of debates with Rabbi's we have the Bible, the midrashim, the targuimim and so on and so forth.
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Does it really matter if Jesus wasn't born on Christmas? It doesn't stop his life, the things he did, or the positive effect his ministry has had on thousands of people all over the world being any less special or significant?
I always think it's strange when people try and use these types of arguments to make Christianity seem like its false ... not that anyone here has but its a common trend that I've seen ... surely you'd pick a more substantial piece of evidence or a more substantial claim to try and disprove something.
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Does it really matter if Jesus wasn't born on Christmas? It doesn't stop his life, the things he did, or the positive effect his ministry has had on thousands of people all over the world being any less special or significant?
I always think it's strange when people try and use these types of arguments to make Christianity seem like its false ... not that anyone here has but its a common trend that I've seen ... surely you'd pick a more substantial piece of evidence or a more substantial claim to try and disprove something.
I for one do not use Jesus’ birth as a way to disprove his works, to assume to do such would be ignorant, I do however use it as an example of how Organized religion adopts a do as I say and not as I do attitude. Church tells us that lying is bad, that it is a sin and yet they go ahead and make Dec 25th Jesus B-Day. They did it willfully and with full knowledge that it was a falsification. IMO if an organization is going to condemn someone for an action, then the organization should be held liable when they commit the same act. Would Jesus have lied just to make things more convenient for himself? Those 4 little words ladies and gentlemen (What Would Jesus Do) are powerful words and help you to put into perspective the integrity of the world today.
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I totally agree that religious hypocrisy is a very mockery of the faith itself. Corrupt people (which we all are) but in particular those corrupt with power use religion as a force to fulfil their own greed and desires. They turn people away from the truth; they cause conflict and can dictate a whole society through unhealthy levels of control. This can be seen throughout all religion, as something as extreme as the crusades and elect-ism the catholic church gives the pope, through to Muslim women wearing the burkha’s, and the Mormon leaders who claim that their dress code and tradition are all biblical (I watched a very interesting UK Channel 4 documentary on a born again Mormon and his struggle with the power the leaders had on him and the community that he lived in. English translations of the bible were not allowed and he got one realising that the leaders were all wrong he and his family faced ex-communication and public disgrace even though he could prove that you didn’t get into heaven by works and earning God’s love.)
I personally have a very bold view that most faiths, me speaking predominantly for Christianity, have never caused a war, because it is not the faith in question that teaches the violence and hatred which comes from war but the misguided and corrupt individuals that abuse their religious authority and positions of power.
However coming from this line of argument an intelligent person wouldn’t allow idiots like these to affect their relationship with God and from actually knowing the truth. It’s about separating religious hypocrites and God from one category. I for one found this a great difficulty when I first became a Christian. I was raised in a Christian family but was a very strong and mean atheist, hating my family arguing constantly and being horrible to my mother in particular. I used to openly bully and persecute Christians, which in UK schools are a minority, including my own brother to the point they might even get some minor physical abuse. When I first became a Christian and wore eyeliner and had jet black razored hair, there were nice people who complemented me and accepted me, but there was also always someone willing to give their two-cents. Being a new Christian very set in my old ways my initial reaction was to tell them to ‘fark themselves’ and I very quickly became very distant from the church and indeed my own personal relationship with God. I associated these people, who didn’t understand God’s love grace or forgiveness, with God himself and it was a long time before I was able to pick myself back up and go back into the church community. Now realising and accepting my sexual orientation I have decided for my own sanity and peace of mind not to go around telling everyone so that as little conflict will be caused as possible. Not that I feel I need to hide it I just feel that where peace can be made it is the best way to go. And I can now thankfully very calmly and collectively tell people my opinion in an orderly and intelligent way, not belittling them but helping them see why I think that they are wrong on a biblical level.
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And I can now thankfully very calmly and collectively tell people my opinion in an orderly and intelligent way, not belittling them but helping them see why I think that they are wrong on a biblical level.
It sounds to me that you speak more from a Spiritual level than a Biblical one (Biblical meaning you recant and whole believe the entire context of the bible). I find no fault in your spirituality, in fact it sounds/looks to me as if you have reached a much higher level of righteousness than others who speak of religion however I must ask (and I am sure you knew this question was coming) what is your view on this passage? Levi 18:22. I am sure you already know what the passage states as you have already said you no longer share you sexual orientation with others in person (I have to assume it relates directly to the church). Now you see why I say you have the outlook of spirituality rather than biblical.
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Well for me as a Christian it all boils down to a matter of the Spirit of God (Christian Spirituality) and the Word (Christian Doctrine), which is respected as the inspired word of God and indeed the very essence of God (John 1:1) and understanding them and indeed the bible in its full context. Sorry if this drags on a bit or sounds patronizing I don’t intend either.
I would be as bold as to say that one without the other is useless. People can read the bible all their life but without a revelation through or of the Spirit they are just reading words on a page. Similarly the Spirit without the Word leads to a bunch of very dangerous people who have the power of God but a clumsy execution and in some cases a complete inability to execute it or lead a better life for themselves. Either can lead to discontent both with an individual’s relationship with God and discontent within the church. It allows for religious hypocrites to get into power (think the middle ages and the lack of Christian Spirituality [no Holy Spirit]). Just a bunch of Latin books that were scary and held with such reverence people burned and killed those who were different or questioned it; not only a dangerous amount of one without the other, but also a complete misunderstanding of what the bible actually teaches.
Now the bible is essentially the Jewish and early Christian history which shows God’s desire to know the creations he’s made. However the major problem is that as God is so holy our unrighteousness stops us from being in relationship with him. It’s like trying to force a magnet together or like putting a black stain on a perfectly white canvas. In the Old Testament people were so unclean through their ‘sin’ and had no real way of atonement that when they came in contact with the Spirit of God they would drop down dead. God didn’t punish people through this it was merely the effect of knowing pure righteousness when we as a race are so unrighteous. The rightful punishment for any and all sin is death and complete separation from God. Anyway, God decided that once man starting sinning he needed to fix this. (Not a big angry man in the clouds tutting at every opportune moment but a loving father who wants to save a sinful race ... why ... I don’t know, it still stuns me to this day that he would care, so don’t ask :P)
Anyway, some pagans or occultists might understand this well, he made covenants with mankind. This basically means that two parties have an agreement and regardless of the other parties ability to stick to the agreement the stronger party will still hold up their end of the deal. I’ll scratch your back even if you can’t manage to scratch mine. God did this with the Jewish people through animal sacrifice, as real sacrifice demands blood, symbolic of life itself, but he knew that eventually one ultimate and blameless sacrifice had to be made for a real communion with his creations so that they wouldn’t die whenever they met or came into communion. He did this through shedding the blood of Jesus, who came to earth, led a perfect life never sinning and being a beautiful bright canvas never dirtied, fully man and fully God. He was falsely accused beaten, tortured and killed in the most horrific way imaginable. So unimaginable they had to create the word excruciating to describe it (referring to crucifixion). Anyway on the cross he took on the sins of the world for all time and became sin so who ever believed in him would put their sins and burdens on him and not face eternal separation from God but would be clothed in his righteousness through what he did. Not only this, now that God could meet with his people through the spirit he could give all his gifts and blessings like prophecy, being filled with the Spirit, prosperity, guidance, and sozo (Greek for full restoration of mind[soul], body, and spirit.) God throughout history has been on and chosen individuals and people on mass to be his people and today Christians, I believe, are those people with the lord on them. That’s why it is not a gospel of works; it is a gospel of grace and mercy. There is nothing anyone can do to earn God’s love because we already have it and there is no way to earn your way into heaven because only God could do that ... there is no room for pride or boasting.
Anyway that knowledge now being obtained, it means that although I now want to aspire to live the way God wants me to live and to fulfil his commands it is a natural part of the human condition that I will occasionally falter (‘the mind is will but the flesh is weak). It says in the word that we should aspire and live in perfection, that we were once slaves and are now set free, but it also says that we will not know glorification until we are with the father, and the work he has started in us will not be completed until we are off this earthly plain. I am so grateful that God would save someone like me! Sin is something we all fight and no Christian is perfect. I know that even if I went out with another man God wouldn’t stop loving me and to be honest the bible condemns the act of homosexuality not being gay so I won’t worry about it till the day that it becomes an issue. In the past it has but I wasn’t a Christian then. It is still problematic and it’s not God’s ideal but I know how corrupt I am and I make no objection when people call me up on stuff like this but no one else can judge me inevitably because we are all fundamentally flawed and are all in need of forgiveness in some way.
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So long story short, you still have feelings for other men, but since you have accepted Christ you have denied yourself the self gratification of perusing those feelings. Did I get that right?
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Well you do digress slightly from the spiritual vs biblical faith debate which your previous statement caused beause I showed through scripture the biblical teachings and doctrine on sin and grace but yes, that is what I will always strive to do, and for a few reasons. It's pleasing to God, as spiritual principles go denying the physical allows a person to gain insight into the spiritual and mental. Also what I have in Christ is better than anything I could gain on this earth.
However as I also made clear ... these are not principles that I will be able to hold so close to me 24/7. I am lucky enough to so far not been in a serious relationship with anyone or to have found someone I want to spend the rest of my life with. In the past couple years though I have slipped up a couple times, usually at parties or gatherings but never anythign more than kissing.
I also don't wish to lie, or be spiteful, or hate someone for something ro doign something wrong (all just as bad) but inevitably I will make mistakes, I will get grouchy and mean, and people will vex and rub me up the wrong way. When I recently found out that my cousins ex-boyfriend had hit her ... I was ready to kill him. I still don't know what I'd do if I saw him in person and I pray that that doesn't happen until I am ready to deal with that in a way that is pleasing to God. Bottom line is I'm not
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see my problem is when people decide what is best for us without giving us the decision. Meaning I hate it when people try to play their own religion to get converts so do systematical moves to do so. Like I know they didn't know when Jesus was born. I mean the gospels were written over 50 years after Jesus died and it was all based on an oral tradition or some Q source. So the church decided that it would be best if they put Jesus' b-day around other major holidays (pagan and Jewish) to get converts.
Lets just say it: I have a problem with Christianity already, just the whole belief that Jesus is God or 'God's son' really bothers me. He was a teacher. He didn't focus on teaching about his death to people. I am tired of people claiming that we should focus on Jesus' death and not his life. Jesus taught people and we have forgotten his teachings, ecept for a few lines in the gospels. And don't say that Jesus wanted for us to learn about his death because I highly doubt that he went around and proclaimed that his death would bring salvation to the world! I mean Jesus didn't die because he was Christ. He died because he was a teacher and the Romans thought he was just a useless poor person and wanted to let people know that they are in power so they killed anyone who threatened their legal power, even if they were not really a threat. That's why the Roman's didn't write about him because they didn't care they killed him. It was a part of every day buisness. I mean John the Baptist had a bigger congregation AND was viewed as a small threat to Roman occupancy of Israel. I just have a problem with Jesus being God or his only son, when in the old testament God adopted sons like Saul, David (the whole Davidic line).
There is just something missing and I don't like it. I want to know more because I can't have faith if it goes against the basic moral codes brought by God (10 commandments). Why would God tell us to follow these laws and then just say they don't matter anymore because of this guy being born? That is my big issue. People disregaurd the fact that we set aside the Laws of God and put Jesus first. Paul even had issues with this because he wanted converts but couldn't get people to do it, if they had to change their whole lifestyle. The more I study the more I realize that our faith is based on acceptance of stories and many of these stories were adapted from other cultures to fit our belief system.
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The teachings of Jesus are all important regardless of who you are and where you came from. Love thy neighbour, Judge not. And it is good that you question what you believe and don’t. However to say that the bible translation in particular the New Testament is unreliable or inaccurate based on a ‘Q source’ is illogical. I’ve seen your posts in other threads rave and you know that’s an unfair statement. It is also untrue to say that he didn’t focus on his death. The main three things he spoke of and that were prophecy about him hundreds, thousands of years before he was born was about his life, death and resurrection and their purposes.
Consider the prophetic Psalm 22 ‘a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.’ and in Zechariah "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."(All written before the invention of crucifixion.) Then compare that to the gospels accounts of his crucifixion ‘When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.’ ‘But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.’ Jesus himself said, ‘it is better that I go’, Even in the garden God said before Adam and Eve Genesis 3:15 ‘and I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.". ... a few of many examples off the top of my head.
Also he didn’t die because he was just a teacher or the Romans didn’t like him, he died because the Pharisees conspired against and hated him. The Romans actual had very little to do with his death apart from the physical beating and actual act. It was the religious leaders and the masses who pushed for crucifixion. They publicly badmouthed him and denied the miracles he performed. They were desperate for a powerful and mighty messiah who would overthrow their enemies. Which Jesus one day will come back and do, but that was not his job then. He was to be a living sacrifice for the sins of man, a perfect spotless lamb who would be slaughtered as the ultimate sacrifice. To say differently shows a very limited knowledge of actual scripture. He did go around talking about his death. He kept saying that he was going to die, he even named Judas as his betrayer during the last supper.
Also as a Christian the laws of God still apply its not that they don’t matter. Jesus when questioned on this said. ‘ I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it.’ The problem is no human can fulfil the law 24/7 as we are fundamentally flawed and in nature corrupt. It had to be God which is why Jesus was God. Read my above post, the big one where I talk about the Word and the Spirit.
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Well you do digress slightly from the spiritual vs biblical faith debate which your previous statement caused beause I showed through scripture the biblical teachings and doctrine on sin and grace but yes, that is what I will always strive to do, and for a few reasons.
Yes, it seems I digress, but only to clarify an intent. I was looking to ascertain whether or not you still have those feeling you had before being "born again", and now that I have done so, I have another piece of bible scripture for you.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A27-30&version=NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A27-30&version=NIV)
Now I understand that Adultery is not the same as homosexuality, but the premise is still the same. If you think about it, then you have done it, and that is according to bible scripture. This is why I say you are more Spiritual than Biblical. Take it not as an insult, but as a compliment. I can understand that you want to be biblical, but unless you can fully turn your sexuality 180 degrees, then you will always be at odds with the bible. (I know that sin is forgiven, but the bible implies we should strive not sin at all, and when we do, it is implied that we have disappointed God by willfully doing something that is wrong/sinful)
Now I am far from innocent when it comes to biblical behavior, a prime example can be found here.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-42&version=NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-42&version=NIV)
I have never in my life turned the other cheek, nor do I ever see myself doing so. Now I do believe there is a higher power, and when the time comes "It"' and I will discuss my future, but here in this life I will be who I am meant to be, to do otherwise would be a false presentation to others and more importantly to myself.
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Well not really, there are two ways to approach this verse and its impact on our lives, the first is in this paragraph. To lust after somebody is a little more than thinking that they are attractive. Temptation is not a sin, Jesus was tempted and he was blameless, and therefore a person can be tempted I’m tempted probably every hour of the day lol but the word that is translated ‘to lust’ (in the more accurate not necessarily easier translation KJV lol) is a strong word talking about having obsessive and impure thoughts about someone. If I look at a guy and think he’s hot that is not necessarily lusting after them, however to purposely go out of my way to look at someone, fantasize about them and even act on those thoughts (even if it was by myself ... hopefully you understand my meaning) that is a sin because it isn’t just thinking their pretty anymore. The bible says that we should aspire to live on the spiritual level of existence and that does mean denying ourselves the physical sometimes but in my personal experience, and that is all I can offer you, the experience of having that spiritual relationship is far better than anything physical I’ve experienced and I’ve had sex, done hard drugs, gotten drunk. At 17 you probably think I need help but oh well, not all of us are born with silver spoons in our mouths :P .
The second way you can look at this is that Jesus is using this teaching to highlight the holiness of God. The Pharisees and other religious leaders of the time thought that by keeping the law fully you could attain the full righteousness of God ... true ... but it is impossible unless you are God. People feared them because they were more ‘righteous’ and they viewed themselves as God’s somewhat. They were religious hypocrites. Jesus demonstrated that they weren’t and that sin isn’t just something you do, it’s something that can live in your core. It consumes you not only physically but mentally and spiritually and these teachings lead up to his teachings about why he came to set us free. Otherwise people would say ‘I don’t need to be free from anything I’m a good enough person as it is’ That’s why in that same passage he talks about cutting your hand off. He wasn’t suggesting practically that is advisable so please put the knife down! :P he was merely telling us how dangerous sin is. There is a book just as a side note that I would really recommend reading if you are interested in this kind of debate about Jesus ... liar, lucky, loony, looser, lord? I am totally gonna plug it, unashamedly :P More Than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell (http://www.amazon.com/More-Than-Carpenter-Josh-McDowell/dp/0842345523 (http://www.amazon.com/More-Than-Carpenter-Josh-McDowell/dp/0842345523)) definite read if you’re interested in theology or apologetics
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The real question is if Jesus really did make a prophecy about his death? If you really look closely to historical evidence most stories that make the claims of prophecies are written after the prophets have been dead for a long time. People always change what people say so that they can get a grip with their own beliefs and to make sense of everything. The major problem with Jesus is that he was suppose to be the Messiah but it evolved into a Christ-God and not really a leader/king in the world. Its all a manipulation of words I feel. It also bothers me because when you look at some of the prophecies that Jesus said they are Greek phrases and can't translate into Aramaic! So therefore, if they don't translate how could have Jesus said them? Also if you ever noticed there is a lot of cultural mixing and Hellenistic ideas that evolved into the Jewish tradition? I dunno I have a problem with all of it.
I do understand that people believe it I just don't and am trying to find the truth. Even if that is heresy against the church I want some stability and truthfulness. Therefore lets get a shovel and start looking in some of these places Jesus has been to.
I am not saying people don't have to believe it, I just believe that whatever a person believes is what will happen to them and we should respect that they believe it but you don't have to believe it, and don't enforce it onto others.
and i am not going to argue on this anymore. I don't feel like it and its a waste of time trying to make someone understand my points of view.
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The real question is if Jesus really did make a prophecy about his death? If you really look closely to historical evidence most stories that make the claims of prophecies are written after the prophets have been dead for a long time. People always change what people say so that they can get a grip with their own beliefs and to make sense of everything. The major problem with Jesus is that he was suppose to be the Messiah but it evolved into a Christ-God and not really a leader/king in the world. Its all a manipulation of words I feel. It also bothers me because when you look at some of the prophecies that Jesus said they are Greek phrases and can't translate into Aramaic! So therefore, if they don't translate how could have Jesus said them? Also if you ever noticed there is a lot of cultural mixing and Hellenistic ideas that evolved into the Jewish tradition? I dunno I have a problem with all of it.
I do understand that people believe it I just don't and am trying to find the truth. Even if that is heresy against the church I want some stability and truthfulness. Therefore lets get a shovel and start looking in some of these places Jesus has been to.
I am not saying people don't have to believe it, I just believe that whatever a person believes is what will happen to them and we should respect that they believe it but you don't have to believe it, and don't enforce it onto others.
and i am not going to argue on this anymore. I don't feel like it and its a waste of time trying to make someone understand my points of view.
Well (not trying to bad mouth christians) alot of christians (not all of them) dont bother to listen to what others point of view is, Mostly cuz they were handed a bible and said "follow this" Im sorry all you guys that are christian, but where is the truth in the bible? Im trying to figure this out, and No i have nothing against christians at all But i just want to know What makes you have faith? What drives you to follow the bible?
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Rave, I think what the major problem in this argument is an inability to understand Jewish culture, an inability to look at reliable and unbiased sources and an inability to actually listen to what other people are saying. To suggest that any Jewish scribe would purposefully edit a prophetic message is so illogical it is astounding. You come from the unfortunate disposition of living in the 21st Century where respect and awe of God is almost none existent in popular culture. These people lived with God every second of every day and their belief in him was so real that they saw miracles I can’t even imagine.
And you say ‘if you look really closely’ ... do you speak Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew, you haven’t even given the name of a source of any of your information ... you say ‘let’s get a shovel’ ... I’ve given several historians both Jewish and Roman ... I’ve given you the name of a book littered with fact and eye witness accounts ... unfortunately you don’t have an opinion to argue against you have a thought. An opinion is based on some kind of evidence or substance based in something like fact or faith, knowledge or personal experience ... you’ve yet to show any of this. So it’s hard to make a response.
And as for heresy I’ve seen worse and been worse so seriously, you talk about stability and truthfulness ... the amount of confusion your giving off makes me think you’re not getting that in the opposing side.
And Strife have you ever looked into the claims of Christianity or have you just lazily rejected it ... have you ever tried to meet with God or listen to the claims of the bible or just ignored it as if that is the logical thing to do ... have you not looked at the world around you and thought how could it get this corrupt and is there nothing I could do to fix it ... have you never seen people die close to you and thought I wonder what just happened ... Read the book more than a carpenter its fairly cheap and it will inform you a lot.
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And Strife have you ever looked into the claims of Christianity or have you just lazily rejected it ... have you ever tried to meet with God or listen to the claims of the bible or just ignored it as if that is the logical thing to do ... have you not looked at the world around you and thought how could it get this corrupt and is there nothing I could do to fix it ... have you never seen people die close to you and thought I wonder what just happened ... Read the book more than a carpenter its fairly cheap and it will inform you a lot.
Well first off you still didnt answer my questions.......And if you answer those, ill answer yours, Mixing questions with questions.....Anyways Answer mine and i shall answer yours
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Where is the truth in the bible? What makes you have faith? What drives you to follow the bible?
It's not really mixing questions with questions ... they are there to make you think and I wasn't actually looking for an anwser ... there for you not me :P .. and I did anwser your questions you just didn't read the full post. As I said in the previous post ... I investegated the claims of christianty, read historians accounts, and looked into sources from either end of the argument. I have personal experience, three years of constant 'coincedences' as a christian that could never be explained by 'logic' or science and the one true knowledge of who I am and who God is.
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Where is the truth in the bible? What makes you have faith? What drives you to follow the bible?
It's not really mixing questions with questions ... they are there to make you think and I wasn't actually looking for an anwser ... there for you not me :P .. and I did anwser your questions you just didn't read the full post. As I said in the previous post ... I investegated the claims of christianty, read historians accounts, and looked into sources from either end of the argument. I have personal experience, three years of constant 'coincedences' as a christian that could never be explained by 'logic' or science and the one true knowledge of who I am and who God is.
When dealing with experiences such as these Emp, logic is irrelevant. Share your experiences (unless too personal, or painful). You need not fear recrimination in sharing with us something that others would consider too strange to be true. Just remember to only share your experiences, don't let it turn into a sermon.
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Where is the truth in the bible? What makes you have faith? What drives you to follow the bible?
It's not really mixing questions with questions ... they are there to make you think and I wasn't actually looking for an anwser ... there for you not me :P .. and I did anwser your questions you just didn't read the full post. As I said in the previous post ... I investegated the claims of christianty, read historians accounts, and looked into sources from either end of the argument. I have personal experience, three years of constant 'coincedences' as a christian that could never be explained by 'logic' or science and the one true knowledge of who I am and who God is.
When dealing with experiences such as these Emp, logic is irrelevant. Share your experiences (unless too personal, or painful). You need not fear recrimination in sharing with us something that others would consider too strange to be true. Just remember to only share your experiences, don't let it turn into a sermon.
Ok, and thank you … I would like to apologize for pissy mood too, friend died this week so very tetchy.
I’ll tell you my greatest personal experience to date … many of my major encounters with the Holy spirit are at charismatic events like Newday … this year 8,000 11-19 years olds gathered in the UK to celebrate Jesus with intense worship sessions and on one night in particular during a time of encountering I felt the Holy Spirit come on me like a fire in my gut. My tongue and mouth felt like they was being held against an oven but with out the pain … my teeth chattered uncontrollably and I wept streams and streams. Physical oil formed on my palms and I spoke in tongues as no English words I could think of were sufficient enough in my mind. I closed my eyes and the words intestine and tongue came to my head like they had been lit in my mind and the man who was speaking said ‘a few people feel like there is a fire on their intestine and tongue come forward’. Me and a few of the thousands came forward and the man at the front looked down at me and he prophecy over me that I would lead a great ministry that would move in the prophetic. I felt the Spirit of God so intensely I knew that if I had had one more ounce of encountering with his presence it would have been all too much for me. Then several people came to me, one after the other, talking to me about the freedom I had in Christ, all separately each with out prior knowledge of the others ministering. I then fell to my knees and bowed still, my teeth still chattering and scripture flooded my mind,mainly to do with the chattering of my teeth and the fire on my tongue
2 Samuel 23:2
"The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue.
Psalm 71:24
My tongue will tell of your righteous acts all day long, for those who wanted to harm me have been put to shame and confusion.
Isaiah 50:4
The Sovereign LORD has given me an instructed tongue, to know the word that sustains the weary.
Isaiah 6:5-8
And I said: “Woe is me! I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of
unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” Then one of the seraphs flew to me, holding a live coal that had been taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. The seraph touched my mouth with it and said: “Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out.” Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? And I said, “Here am I; send me!”
Jeremiah 1:4-10
The word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." "Ah, Sovereign LORD," I said, "I do not know how to speak; I am only a child." But the LORD said to me, "Do not say, 'I am only a child.' You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you," declares the LORD. Then the LORD reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, "Now, I have put my words in your mouth. See, today I appoint you over nations and kingdoms to uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant."
I stood up and danced the whole night praising God in my own language and the heavenly one that he has given me and that is why to this day even though I stray from the path he has set before me I can never look back and deny him for who he is and for what he has done, is doing, and will get done through me in my life for his glory. Praise Jesus :)
Lol sorry if that sounded preachy but not a single word is lie and it would be unfair to tell you a half hearted and half missed story
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No, no too preachy, just a shared experience. Now to get back to one of the questions (Faith) You have faith because of the intense feeling you are receiving, and you feel that they are from God. I wish to ask you this. How can you be certain that it is from God and not some other source? It is a legitimate question, as the human mind is weak and quite open to suggestion (no I am not suggesting you have a weak mind, it is just an observation). Any entity with a working knowledge of suggestion could easily coerce someone into belief. Hell, anyone with enough charisma can do it, David Koresh, Adolf Hitler, ect, ect. So how can you be certain, that is the question.
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Because I don't understand why any spirit malevolent or benevolent would lead me to Jesus or lead me into believing my life should be dedicated to spreading his word ... those prophetic scriptures all back up the word I got from the main speaker and half of them I had never heard of ... the fact I received them in itself is miraculous. I also know the distinction between spirits and the Holy Spirit. Having been in the presence of both I can assure you that there is a BIG difference. Also it is generally accepted that individual spirits are not omnipresent, but the Holy Spirit is and could therefore being able to meet nearly everybody in the big top tent where we were, it is logical to assume that this was indeed the work of God.
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And the Old woman allowed Hansel and Gretel to eat from her home only to later attempt to eat them. I have no doubt you believe that God speaks to you, but I must point out that the best way to deceive someone is to offer to them that which they want most and say you expect nothing in return. The thing I search for is hard irrefutable evidence. I know we are not supposed to, but we have freewill after all, and mine tells me to always question, to always examine. If a voice speaks to me and tells me it is God I would say prove it. If it asks me wither speaking to me in my head is not enough I would reply no, for many entities above man could do the same (and in some case men themselves claim to be able to do that feat). I guess what I am getting at here is just because the presence makes you feel good does not mean that it is. A good example would be the way you feel when you do drugs. When someone is using they feel great, top of the world, and no matter what others say they believe the drugs are the best thing for them. You of all people should know what I am referring to here.
And on a side note, don't use the word assume. To make an assumption means there is no solid evidence, it shows a person to be unsure, and that's the last thing you want to do in any kind of debate/discussion.
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Well when I say assume I mean a logical assumption following the line of argument, gravity exists and so if I jump off a building its fair to assume that I will fall to my death. That's not a weak argument.
And if you're looking for proof you will never find it. 'For it is by faith that these things have been revealed to you'
It says in the Word that 'when his [mankinds] heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory.'
And in Acts
Go to your people. Say to them,
You will hear but never understand.
You will see but never know what you are seeing.
These people's hearts have become stubborn.
They can barely hear with their ears.
They have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes.
They might hear with their ears.
They might understand with their hearts.
They might turn, and then I would heal them.' —(Isaiah 6:9,10)
If you can not open yourself up to God you shall never encounter him you will wonder your days in discontent, for it says only those who earnestly seek the Lord shall find him. Sounds preachy I guess but you can't really have a debate that doesn't include the Word of God when your talking about Christianity
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Well when I say assume I mean a logical assumption following the line of argument, gravity exists and so if I jump off a building its fair to assume that I will fall to my death. That's not a weak argument.
Of course that is not a weak argument for gravity, as it has been proven physically time and again. The same could be said for the wind, another element that can not be seen and yet can be proven to exist.
Now if God considers my expectation of proof to be arrogant then so be it, but I will follow no one on simple blind faith that they are who they claim to be. You want my loyalty then you have to do something to earn it. As for what it actually says in the bible, well I ask you which bible. We all know there are many versions, and some have more than others, so which is the true word of God? An inspired word is not the same as the actually thing. Mein Kampf was also an inspired work that others use to justify that what they do is right. So tell me, what makes any one book better than another to follow? Also who decided what was to go into the bible itself? Why were some works used instead of all works?
(Remember, this is a debate, and someone has to take the opposing side)
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I can't believe you just said I don't understand Jewish culture when Judaism makes more sense than Christainity to me... Too bad these scribes for the new testament were more Greek oriented than Jewish. You can argue about Paul and all but he was a Pharasee, which were the priestly class that was influenced by both the Greek and Roman culture. I do understand the Jewish culture, I don't understand the Christain concept of dropping Jewish morals when Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi and followed the Jewish laws and customs. Christainity is based on too many conflicting ideas within itself in the New Testament (when you read closely and carefully, even in English).
And what about me being able to look up Greek phrases and words? I am not good at it I can assure you but anyone can go out now a days and look up literature on any passage in the bible and compare the Greek to English. English looses a lot of insight to the true meaning during translation. So do you want me to cite every time I take my knowledge on a subject, when its common knowledge in that field because then that is long and timely because there are so many sources that have the same information.
I mean the whole council of Nicene was suppose to sort out what texts were out there, because there use to be so much more literature from the early parts of Christanity. It was one sect of people that decided the fate of Christanity into Catholism. :focus: The Catholic church even admits to placing Jesus's birth in December as a way to convert local Pagans who celebrated holidays at that time of year because of the whole idea of 'death and renual' rituals that take place in December. It's all metaphorical basis but understandable when they didn't know when Jesus was born because only two gospels (well unless you talk about the infancy gospel of thomas) talk about Jesus' birth. Mark and John both focus on his baptism and death. Matthew and Luke focus on birth to death. John more so brings up the ideas of the trinity so that Jesus was the person God was talking to in the beginning but John also believed more that Jesus was a more spiritual being and not a physical more than the other gospels.
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The problem rave is that you’re not reading your bible, you act like you’ve read the whole thing and you know what I’d be amazed, after what you’ve said and the lack of knowledge you’ve demonstrated, if you’ve made it through a single book or letter because you can’t seem to prove that it is conflicting in anyway you just keep saying it over and over again like a parrot, and the points that you continue to make are not fact and are just biased on one-sided views that you’ve regurgitated, somewhat clumsily with know prior knowledge or understanding. If you understood the Jewish culture and texts as well as you claim you would see that they are clearly leading and anticipating the arrival of a messiah who would die for them. They were awaiting that new covenant where by people could be in communion with God without pain, free from sin, with his power dwelling with them. This was both the will of God and the Jews.
The New Testament was predominantly written by the Hellenistic Jew Paul and a John, son of Zebedee who was probably one of the people who knew Jesus best not Greek scribes as you put it. And as for the phrase ‘common knowledge’ you’ve flipped ‘common knowledge’ through every post so that you don’t appear wrong. You said a few posts ago that Jesus wouldn’t focus on his death but know you recognize and use in you response that the people who followed him around for his ministry focus on that very aspect of his preaching!?
As for the Pharisees, they weren’t ‘heavily’ influenced by the Greeks or the Romans they were a law unto themselves. The Romans were almost scared of the power they had over the Jews. Why else would their leader, the occupying power within their country wash his hands of Jesus!?
‘John also believed more that Jesus was a more spiritual being and not a physical more than the other gospels.’ …. All men and women do have a spiritual body and aspect to them but where in particular are you referring too?
I can’t be held accountable for the actions of the Catholic Church however what I can say is the day that Jesus was born is irrelevant the truth of his life death and resurrection is what matters to me and on Christmas that is what I remember.
And Muerte I think that comparing the bible to Mein Kampf is, even in you view, a tad extreme :P :P :P but I understand your argument.
However I will say that my faith is not blind … as I’ve demonstrated my personal experiences with God and the things that I have seen him do is an encouragement to me and my faith … I meditate and rely on his word … it has proved itself to me time and time again and I agree that although the word is diluted with paraphrase, using one of the only points rave made that I understood … you can look up the meaning of words in concordances and the complexity of language means that translation is hard and near impossible in any text. But I do also believe that the best possible translations were made and I can have faith in that due to the people who translated it. I believe that the generally recognized standards e.g. KJ NKJ NIV all hold the truth of who Jesus is and what he does and inevitably that’s the important part and the reason for scripture..
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p.s. sorry for not being around so much ... ive missed this place hehe