Rave, I think what the major problem in this argument is an inability to understand Jewish culture, an inability to look at reliable and unbiased sources and an inability to actually listen to what other people are saying. To suggest that any Jewish scribe would purposefully edit a prophetic message is so illogical it is astounding. You come from the unfortunate disposition of living in the 21st Century where respect and awe of God is almost none existent in popular culture. These people lived with God every second of every day and their belief in him was so real that they saw miracles I can’t even imagine. 

And you say ‘if you look really closely’ ... do you speak Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew, you haven’t even given the name of a source of any of your information ... you say ‘let’s get a shovel’ ... I’ve given several historians both Jewish and Roman ... I’ve given you the name of a book littered with fact and eye witness accounts  ... unfortunately you don’t have an opinion to argue against you have a thought. An opinion is based on some kind of evidence or substance based in something like fact or faith, knowledge or personal experience ... you’ve yet to show any of this. So it’s hard to make a response.

And as for heresy I’ve seen worse and been worse so seriously, you talk about stability and truthfulness ... the amount of confusion your giving off makes me think you’re not getting that in the opposing side.








And Strife have you ever looked into the claims of Christianity or have you just lazily rejected it ... have you ever tried to meet with God or listen to the claims of the bible or just ignored it as if that is the logical thing to do ... have you not looked at the world around you and thought how could it get this corrupt and is there nothing I could do to fix it ... have you never seen people die close to you and thought I wonder what just happened ... Read the book more than a carpenter its fairly cheap and it will inform you a lot.

[Strife]

And Strife have you ever looked into the claims of Christianity or have you just lazily rejected it ... have you ever tried to meet with God or listen to the claims of the bible or just ignored it as if that is the logical thing to do ... have you not looked at the world around you and thought how could it get this corrupt and is there nothing I could do to fix it ... have you never seen people die close to you and thought I wonder what just happened ... Read the book more than a carpenter its fairly cheap and it will inform you a lot.

Well first off you still didnt answer my questions.......And if you answer those, ill answer yours, Mixing questions with questions.....Anyways Answer mine and i shall answer yours

Where is the truth in the bible? What makes you have faith? What drives you to follow the bible?



It's not really mixing questions with questions ... they are there to make you think and I wasn't actually looking for an anwser ... there for you not me .. and I did anwser your questions you just didn't read the full post. As I said in the previous post ... I investegated the claims of christianty, read historians accounts, and looked into sources from either end of the argument. I have personal experience, three years of constant 'coincedences' as a christian that could never be explained by 'logic' or science and the one true knowledge of who I am and who God is.

[Muerte]

Where is the truth in the bible? What makes you have faith? What drives you to follow the bible?



It's not really mixing questions with questions ... they are there to make you think and I wasn't actually looking for an anwser ... there for you not me .. and I did anwser your questions you just didn't read the full post. As I said in the previous post ... I investegated the claims of christianty, read historians accounts, and looked into sources from either end of the argument. I have personal experience, three years of constant 'coincedences' as a christian that could never be explained by 'logic' or science and the one true knowledge of who I am and who God is.

  When dealing with experiences such as these Emp, logic is irrelevant.  Share your experiences (unless too personal, or painful).  You need not fear recrimination in sharing with us something that others would consider too strange to be true.  Just remember to only share your experiences, don't let it turn into a sermon.

Where is the truth in the bible? What makes you have faith? What drives you to follow the bible?



It's not really mixing questions with questions ... they are there to make you think and I wasn't actually looking for an anwser ... there for you not me .. and I did anwser your questions you just didn't read the full post. As I said in the previous post ... I investegated the claims of christianty, read historians accounts, and looked into sources from either end of the argument. I have personal experience, three years of constant 'coincedences' as a christian that could never be explained by 'logic' or science and the one true knowledge of who I am and who God is.

  When dealing with experiences such as these Emp, logic is irrelevant.  Share your experiences (unless too personal, or painful).  You need not fear recrimination in sharing with us something that others would consider too strange to be true.  Just remember to only share your experiences, don't let it turn into a sermon.

Ok, and thank you … I would like to apologize for pissy mood too, friend died this week so very tetchy.

I’ll tell you my greatest personal experience to date … many of my major encounters with the Holy spirit are at charismatic events like Newday … this year 8,000 11-19 years olds gathered in the UK to celebrate Jesus with intense worship sessions and on one night in particular during a time of encountering I felt the Holy Spirit come on me like a fire in my gut. My tongue and mouth felt like they was being held against an oven but with out the pain … my teeth chattered uncontrollably and I wept streams and streams. Physical oil formed on my palms and I spoke in tongues as no English words I could think of were sufficient enough in my mind. I closed my eyes and the words intestine and tongue came to my head like they had been lit in my mind and the man who was speaking said ‘a few people feel like there is a fire on their intestine and tongue come forward’. Me and a few of the thousands came forward and the man at the front looked down at me and he prophecy over me that I would lead a great ministry that would move in the prophetic. I felt the Spirit of God so intensely I knew that if I had had one more ounce of encountering with his presence it would have been all too much for me. Then several people came to me, one after the other, talking to me about the freedom I had in Christ, all separately each with out prior knowledge of the others ministering. I then fell to my knees and bowed still, my teeth still chattering and scripture flooded my mind,mainly to do with the chattering of my teeth and the fire on my tongue
2 Samuel 23:2
"The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue.
Psalm 71:24
My tongue will tell of your righteous acts all day long, for those who wanted to harm me have been put to shame and confusion.
Isaiah 50:4
The Sovereign LORD has given me an instructed tongue, to know the word that sustains the weary.
Isaiah 6:5-8
And I said: “Woe is me! I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of
unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” Then one of the seraphs flew to me, holding a live coal that had been taken from the altar with a pair of tongs. The seraph touched my mouth with it and said: “Now that this has touched your lips, your guilt has departed and your sin is blotted out.” Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? And I said, “Here am I; send me!”

Jeremiah 1:4-10
The word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." "Ah, Sovereign LORD," I said, "I do not know how to speak; I am only a child." But the LORD said to me, "Do not say, 'I am only a child.' You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you," declares the LORD. Then the LORD reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, "Now, I have put my words in your mouth. See, today I appoint you over nations and kingdoms to uproot and tear down, to destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant."



I stood up and danced the whole night praising God in my own language and the heavenly one that he has given me and that is why to this day even though I stray from the path he has set before me I can never look back and deny him for who he is and for what he has done, is doing, and will get done through me in my life for his glory. Praise Jesus

Lol sorry if that sounded preachy but not a single word is lie and it would be unfair to tell you a half hearted and half missed story

[Muerte]

  No, no too preachy, just a shared experience.  Now to get back to one of the questions (Faith)  You have faith because of the intense feeling you are receiving, and you feel that they are from God.  I wish to ask you this.  How can you be certain that it is from God and not some other source?  It is a legitimate question, as the human mind is weak and quite open to suggestion (no I am not suggesting you have a weak mind, it is just an observation).  Any entity with a working knowledge of suggestion could easily coerce someone into belief.  Hell, anyone with enough charisma can do it, David Koresh, Adolf Hitler, ect, ect.  So how can you be certain, that is the question.

Because I don't understand why any spirit malevolent or benevolent would lead me to Jesus or lead me into believing my life should be dedicated to spreading his word ... those prophetic scriptures all back up the word I got from the main speaker and half of them I had never heard of ... the fact I received them in itself is miraculous. I also know the distinction between spirits and the Holy Spirit. Having been in the presence of both I can assure you that there is a BIG difference. Also it is generally accepted that individual spirits are not omnipresent, but the Holy Spirit is and could therefore being able to meet nearly everybody in the big top tent where we were, it is logical to assume that this was indeed the work of God.
 

[Muerte]

  And the Old woman allowed Hansel and Gretel to eat from her home only to later attempt to eat them.  I have no doubt you believe that God speaks to you, but I must point out that the best way to deceive someone is to offer to them that which they want most and say you expect nothing in return.  The thing I search for is hard irrefutable evidence.  I know we are not supposed to, but we have freewill after all, and mine tells me to always question, to always examine.  If a voice speaks to me and tells me it is God I would say prove it.  If it asks me wither speaking to me in my head is not enough I would reply no, for many entities above man could do the same (and in some case men themselves claim to be able to do that feat).  I guess what I am getting at here is just because the presence makes you feel good does not mean that it is.  A good example would be the way you feel when you do drugs.  When someone is using they feel great, top of the world, and no matter what others say they believe the drugs are the best thing for them.  You of all people should know what I am referring to here. 

  And on a side note, don't use the word assume.  To make an assumption means there is no solid evidence, it shows a person to be unsure, and that's the last thing you want to do in any kind of debate/discussion.

Well when I say assume I mean a logical assumption following the line of argument, gravity exists and so if I jump off a building its fair to assume that I will fall to my death. That's not a weak argument.

And if you're looking for proof you will never find it. 'For it is by faith that these things have been revealed to you'
It says in the Word that 'when his [mankinds] heart became arrogant and hardened with pride, he was deposed from his royal throne and stripped of his glory.'

And in Acts

Go to your people. Say to them,
You will hear but never understand.
You will see but never know what you are seeing.
These people's hearts have become stubborn.
They can barely hear with their ears.
They have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes.
They might hear with their ears.
They might understand with their hearts.
They might turn, and then I would heal them.' —(Isaiah 6:9,10)

If you can not open yourself up to God you shall never encounter him you will wonder your days in discontent, for it says only  those who earnestly seek the Lord shall find him. Sounds preachy I guess but you can't really have a debate that doesn't include the Word of God when your talking about Christianity

[Muerte]

Well when I say assume I mean a logical assumption following the line of argument, gravity exists and so if I jump off a building its fair to assume that I will fall to my death. That's not a weak argument.

  Of course that is not a weak argument for gravity, as it has been proven physically time and again.  The same could be said for the wind, another element that can not be seen and yet can be proven to exist.

  Now if God considers my expectation of proof to be arrogant then so be it, but I will follow no one on simple blind faith that they are who they claim to be.  You want my loyalty then you have to do something to earn it.  As for what it actually says in the bible, well I ask you which bible.  We all know there are many versions, and some have more than others, so which is the true word of God?  An inspired word is not the same as the actually thing.   Mein Kampf was also an inspired work that others use to justify that what they do is right.  So tell me, what makes any one book better than another to follow?  Also who decided what was to go into the bible itself?  Why were some works used instead of all works?

  (Remember, this is a debate, and someone has to take the opposing side)

[rave phillaphia]

I can't believe you just said I don't understand Jewish culture when Judaism makes more sense than Christainity to me... Too bad these scribes for the new testament were more Greek oriented than Jewish. You can argue about Paul and all but he was a Pharasee, which were the priestly class that was influenced by both the Greek and Roman culture. I do understand the Jewish culture, I don't understand the Christain concept of dropping Jewish morals when Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi and followed the Jewish laws and customs. Christainity is based on too many conflicting ideas within itself in the New Testament (when you read closely and carefully, even in English).

And what about me being able to look up Greek phrases and words? I am not good at it I can assure you but anyone can go out now a days and look up literature on any passage in the bible and compare the Greek to English. English looses a lot of insight to the true meaning during translation. So do you want me to cite every time I take my knowledge on a subject, when its common knowledge in that field because then that is long and timely because there are so many sources that have the same information.

 I mean the whole council of Nicene was suppose to sort out what texts were out there, because there use to be so much more literature from the early parts of Christanity. It was one sect of people that decided the fate of Christanity into Catholism.  The Catholic church even admits to placing Jesus's birth in December as a way to convert local Pagans who celebrated holidays at that time of year because of the whole idea of 'death and renual' rituals that take place in December. It's all metaphorical basis but understandable when they didn't know when Jesus was born because only two gospels (well unless you talk about the infancy gospel of thomas) talk about Jesus' birth. Mark and John both focus on his baptism and death. Matthew and Luke focus on birth to death. John more so brings up the ideas of the trinity so that Jesus was the person God was talking to in the beginning but John also believed more that Jesus was a more spiritual being and not a physical more than the other gospels.

The problem rave is that you’re not reading your bible, you act like you’ve read the whole thing and you know what I’d be amazed, after what you’ve said and the lack of knowledge you’ve demonstrated, if you’ve made it through a single book or letter because you can’t seem to prove that it is conflicting in anyway you just keep saying it over and over again like a parrot, and the points that you continue to make are not fact and are just biased on one-sided views that you’ve regurgitated, somewhat clumsily with know prior knowledge or understanding. If you understood the Jewish culture and texts as well as you claim you would see that they are clearly leading and anticipating the arrival of a messiah who would die for them. They were awaiting that new covenant where by people could be in communion with God without pain, free from sin, with his power dwelling with them. This was both the will of God and the Jews.

The New Testament was predominantly written by the Hellenistic Jew Paul and a John, son of Zebedee who was probably one of the people who knew Jesus best not Greek scribes as you put it. And as for the phrase ‘common knowledge’ you’ve flipped ‘common knowledge’ through every post so that you don’t appear wrong. You said a few posts ago that Jesus wouldn’t focus on his death but know you recognize and use in you response that the people who followed him around for his ministry focus on that very aspect of his preaching!?

As for the Pharisees, they weren’t ‘heavily’ influenced by the Greeks or the Romans they were a law unto themselves. The Romans were almost scared of the power they had over the Jews. Why else would their leader, the occupying power within their country wash his hands of Jesus!?

‘John also believed more that Jesus was a more spiritual being and not a physical more than the other gospels.’ …. All men and women do have a spiritual body and aspect to them but where in particular are you referring too?

I can’t be held accountable for the actions of the Catholic Church however what I can say is the day that Jesus was born is irrelevant the truth of his life death and resurrection is what matters to me and on Christmas that is what I remember. 



And Muerte I think that comparing the bible to Mein Kampf is, even in you view, a tad extreme but I understand your argument.
However I will say that my faith is not blind … as I’ve demonstrated my personal experiences with God and the things that I have seen him do is an encouragement to me and my faith … I meditate and rely on his word … it has proved itself to me time and time again and I agree that although the word is diluted with paraphrase, using one of the only points rave made that I understood … you can look up the meaning of words in concordances and the complexity of language means that translation is hard and near impossible in any text. But I do also believe that the best possible translations were made and I can have faith in that due to the people who translated it. I believe that the generally recognized standards e.g. KJ NKJ NIV all hold the truth of who Jesus is and what he does and inevitably that’s the important part and the reason for scripture..

p.s. sorry for not being around so much ... ive missed this place hehe