From the telegraph Newspaper UK 9/12/08



'Jesus was born in June', astronomers claim

Astronomers have calculated that Christmas should be in June, by charting the appearance of the 'Christmas star' which the Bible says led the three Wise Men to Jesus.

They found that a bright star which appeared over Bethlehem 2,000 years ago pinpointed the date of Christ's birth as June 17 rather than December 25.

The researchers claim the 'Christmas star' was most likely a magnificent conjunction of the planets Venus and Jupiter, which were so close together they would have shone unusually brightly as a single "beacon of light" which appeared suddenly.

If the team is correct, it would mean Jesus was a Gemini, not a Capricorn as previously believed.

Australian astronomer Dave Reneke used complex computer software to chart the exact positions of all celestial bodies and map the night sky as it would have appeared over the Holy Land more than 2,000 years ago.

It revealed a spectacular astronomical event around the time of Jesus's birth.

Mr Reneke says the wise men probably interpreted it as the sign they had been waiting for, and they followed the 'star' to Christ's birthplace in a stable in Bethlehem, as described in the Bible.

Generally accepted research has placed the nativity to somewhere between 3BC and 1AD.

Using the St Matthew's Gospel as a reference point, Mr Reneke pinpointed the planetary conjunction, which appeared in the constellation of Leo, to the exact date of June 17 in the year 2BC.

The astronomy lecturer, who is also news editor of Sky and Space magazine, said: "We have software that can recreate exactly the night sky as it was at any point in the last several thousand years.

"We used it to go back to the time when Jesus was born, according to the Bible.

"Venus and Jupiter became very close in the the year 2BC and they would have appeared to be one bright beacon of light.

"We are not saying this was definitely the Christmas star - but it is the strongest explanation for it of any I have seen so far.

"There's no other explanation that so closely matches the facts we have from the time.

"This could well have been what the three wise men interpreted as a sign. They could easily have mistaken it for one bright star.

"Astronomy is such a precise science, we can plot exactly where the planets were, and it certainly seems this is the fabled Christmas star."

Mr Reneke, formerly the chief lecturer at the Port Macquarie Observatory in New South Wales, added: "December is an arbitrary date we have accepted but it doesn't really mean that is when it happened.

"This is not an attempt to decry religion. It's really backing it up as it shows there really was a bright object appearing in the East at the right time.

"Often when we mix science with religion in this kind of forum, it can upset people. In this case, I think this could serve to reinforce people's faith."

Previous theories have speculated the star was a supernova - an exploding star - or even a comet. But Mr Reneke says by narrowing the date down, the technology has provided the most compelling explanation yet.

[7VII7]

If the whole recent "political correctness about holidays" junk makes June 17 then heads are gonna roll, literally  *sharpens his sweeny todd style razor blade"

[rave phillaphia]

they only have christmas in december because of jewish and pagan holidays. they wanted people to convert. They really didn't know when Jesus was born and if you read scriptures carefully it reveals times because of harvests and stars.

[Muerte]

What??  You mean religion would use subterfuge to make people believe something which isn't exactly true.  But wouldn't that make them liars?

[Aniyu]

I've some to thinking that the moral lessons in the bible were just that, advice. And the main character, jesus, is just that a character. He may have been based off a real person, i don't know. None of us would ever really know. The bible has been translated so many times over the years by countless people, that made some of them got a wild hair and changed it. Cryptologists(sp) these days are so obsessed with it, that we've begun to pick out hidden messages out of the bible. What if the original writer didn't mean to put those there, and we are just over thinking this whole thing?

Just something to think about and like i said none of never really know. I guess that's were faith comes in doesn't it?

[Muerte]

Just something to think about and like i said none of never really know. I guess that's were faith comes in doesn't it?

Precisely!  I want to ask a question.  Who wrote the bible originally?

[Aniyu]

I do not know.

Do you?

[rave phillaphia]

Yes they placed the holidays because they really didn't know when the actual dates were so had to pick logical days: therefore days that other pagan and jewish holidays were located.

Also the bible was written by hundreds of people even down to the break ups of the passages. For Hebrew Bible for instance it was literally 'sewn' together because it was on animal hide which eventually deterioates. Also the texts were rewritten by scribes who sometimes when writting for long periods of time would get tired miss something add something or change something. Also these scribes were rewriting the torah in different languages or just different dialects. Like aramaic (the language Jesus spoke) has 3 basic varients. So does Hebrew because it has early (picto) middle late and today is modern. Also some of these words overlap because in older Hebrew there are no vowels!!! Modern hebrew is the one that uses vowels. And every word has a root word and can have an entirely different meaning or multiple definitions in certain contexts. So if a scribe had to base it off of what they thought it meant it can get changed many times. Thats why archaeologists have such a hard time looking at these texts becuase there are so many different varients. Par exampla look up the midrashim or targumim. Or just look up Legends of the Jews which was complied in the past century when he went to different Jewish communities around the world and got different stories from their oral and writen torahs.

A great example would be the discrepancy between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2:2. Gen 1 through 2:1 is litterally written by one person while the rest of Gen 2 is written by another person. Gen 1 from the babylonian period while Gen 2 is 500 years older roughly about 1000 B.C. therefore Gen 2 is older than Gen 1.

I do have to admit that the christain bible (aka new testament) is a lot easier to trace because it seems to stick to one author (maybe two in some cases) in each book.

[NightSeeker]

  I want to ask a question.  Who wrote the bible originally?

If I remember correctly, the first Books of the Tanakh (Old Testament) were written during the last 20 years of the Babylonian Captivity by  Jewish Priests who were trying to get as many Jews to go back to Israel as possible.  At least half of the Jewish people (especially those under 30) didn't want to leave the comfort and stability of Babylon to slog through the desert, and start the hard work of rebuilding the broken infrastructure of their nation. Not to mention probably not having the same amount of choices about what they could or could not do with their lives. The Tanakh was written as an way to drum up nationalistic and religious pride, and to get as many people as possible to leave with them.  The first Book to be written, the oldest, was the Book of Job.  And you have to realize that almost the entire Book of Genesis is Babylonian myths, with Jewish cultural and religious slants.  Many of the 'demons' mentioned in the bible, for example, were Babylonian Goddesses and Gods.  Asherah = Ishtar/Astarte      Beelzebub = Ba'al Zebub (Lord of Zebub (a city-state))


If I'm wrong , please correct me.

[Angelus]

Christianity have moved holidays around since they started. The whole "Jesus being born in June" thing is very old news. It will be forgotten about and rediscovered again in another 10 years and made a big deal of AGAIN. Truth is when Jesus was born isnt important. Yes Christianity has lied about everything they have ever stated and contridicted itself so many times its funny and, yes, they changed holidays to line up with the holidays of earlier religions just so they could say to people "See, our religion is the same as yours, you just have the wee bits wrong like not worshiping just one God." Its the messages that count. Same as all religions. They all seem to tell the same story of god/gods, a healer or representative sent by god and how he was met with fear and uncertanty. As you may have noticed I was raised catholic. So Christmas, The Winter Solstice, Dong zhi, Yule, Diwali, Hanukkah or whatever you celibrate, doesnt matter how it started, its just there to be enjoyed. You wanna talk about church lies! Easter, Rabbits dont lay eggs, let alone chocolate ones. lol.

[Muerte]

  So in a nut shell, the good book was written by people, not god.  So, on to my next question.  "What makes the bible ( or any other religious text for that matter ) correct"  What I mean by that is, why do so many christians follow it, as if it were the word of god.  God sent us his word once before ( Which is what I continue to live by to this day ), but I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere that he said "I want you to write a book, and include all of this.."

  And before I get bombarded with hate mail, its just a question, one to which I look forward to an answewr.

[NightSeeker]

"What makes the bible ( or any other religious text for that matter ) correct"  What I mean by that is, why do so many christians follow it, as if it were the word of god. 

Well, there are a couple of ways to answer that question. Some may even seem offensive, none is meant.

(Please note that I use the word 'Priest' to mean figures of religious authority in various religions; and 'Book' or 'Holy Book' to mean a codified doctrine of any religion.  I am not singling out any particular religion, as the following relates to religion in general)


1) Most, if not all organized religions, have to have some sort of hook to maintain control of their adherents. That hook is FEAR. Fear of Eternal Damnation, fear of being left out, fear of being different, fear of the unknown.  Religion itself started as an outgrowth of Spirituality (a questioning of what the World is, how it works, how the Self relates to the World and how the World relates to the Self).  Religion came when people of similar thought came together and started to experiment with ways (rituals) as a group to appease the Spirits of Natural Forces, as well as influence them, either passively (prayer) or actively (magic/mysticism).  Over time (probably after some sort of crisis) the priests of the various religions began to convince their peoples that God/the Gods were angry with them and that God/the Gods would only them (the Priests) because they are Spiritually clean(er) than the general populace.   After solemn contemplation within the Temple (and out of sight of the people), the Priests would come out of the temple and proclaim that God/the Gods told them that He/They were angry and would only have Communication with the Priests.  The Priests from then on would 'proclaim God's/the Gods Will' to the people. Carving/writing those proclamations down served to lock in the Priests control of the people.   From then on power seemed (to the un-Initiated) to flow thusly: Divine>High Priest>Priest>populace. 

2) People want stability and certainty. Most people want Absolute, Immutable Answers. A Holy Book appears to give them that. Which brings us back to Fear again. Spirituality means facing the Unknown, without a set script. Oh, there are general guides. But it's like being dropped in the middle of a forest , blind-folded, with a map marking major trails, a broken compass and no idea of where you are. The beginning of a Spiritual Journey is always about facing the Truth of who you are (good, bad and ugly), taking responsibility for your actions, changing the negative aspects, strengthening the good aspects, and being a decent Human being. It can be pretty scary.   People like the Illusion of the World that they know, it requires little thought or effort. It's like most of people are running on auto-pilot.     After facing your Self, you have to face you Fears.   Some are afraid of other people that are not like them, different. These people would rather poison their lives (and the lives other peoples)with hate and blame others for their own shortcomings, than find out what is lacking within themselves that causes them to have these Fears.   Most others have a more generalized fear of the Unknown. There is ease, comfort and familiarity in being told What Is.  The Fear is that to question what you have been indoctrinated to think since infancy, what many generations have upheld as Absolute Unquestionable Truth, would literally cause the End of their World (-view).  All would be Chaos, and they would be condemned to Damnation for all Eternity.  So they have to do whatever The Book (of whatever religion) tells them, because they can't trust themselves to know what is Right on their own, and apparently neither does/do God/the Gods.  Why else would there be Priests and a Book that tells them what and how to think.

[Muerte]

 Broken down you are saying that most people need others to tell them what is right so they wont forever burn in hell, so they follow a book, written by man, in search of absolution.

[NightSeeker]

What I'm saying is people need others to tell them what is right so they don't have to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.   Not wanting to burn in hell is a motivating factor, but not the root cause.

[Muerte]

What I'm saying is people need others to tell them what is right so they don't have to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

  So then people are morally lazy?