[onishadowolf]

Yep, oh wait you said morally...not just lazy. *Slowly steps away from the podium and then runs*

Think of it like this, religion was like a simple or first form of government. So in essence it took away your worries of security and since it is so hard for some people to make moral decisions,etc. Religion took up the torch, with the rituals came more cleanliness and less diease and less crime because of retribution. See how it works.   

[NightSeeker]

I agree.  And moral laziness is a symptom of Spiritual laziness.   Selfishness also enters into it, as one of the negative aspects of the Self. That's yet another reason that people don't trust themselves, they have been told since infancy that they are evil, sinful and selfish and that they need Priestly Guidance to not Burn For All Eternity.  Having no truly Spiritual training, they therefore see Human Nature as inherently evil and selfish and the words of the Priests/Book as the only route to Redemption/Salvation.

[Muerte]

  I see now.  Humainity is a morally lazy, selfish creature with out enough self strength to make decisions for themselves.  Wait, sorta sounds like a bunch of sheep dosen't it.  No wonder they are called a flock.  Thank whatever created me that I am strong enough to need no such leadership. 

[NightSeeker]

   Well, you also have to keep in mind that the majority of Humanity is young, Spiritually speaking.  The Spiritual equivalent of mid- to late-adolescence. Earth is a School, and most people are still learning.  Haven't you ever wondered why the World seems like a magnified version of High School?

[Muerte]

  Nope, if someone tries to play a high school they tend to regret it.  No, not physically, most would not enjoy that experience, but with words.  See people who still think they are in high school are simple opponents, and bad on me I know, but I have no sympathy for their lack of ability in living in the real world.  And no I will do nothing to help them be a better person.  If a person needs help in that way, then they are a lost cause.

  The young can mature quickly if, and only if, the parent would stop coddling them, and make/let them grow up.  Being a good parent and a responsible one are two different things after all.  Childhood and innocence have their place, but we all need to shed them sooner or later, and for humanities sake, the sooner the better.

[NightSeeker]

Ah, but that's the thing. It's a matter of scale. Take the Nazis or the KKK. If you look at their underlying motivations, you'll find little difference between them and those who went on the killing-spree at Columbine. Discontent that they were being bullied by the popular kids/League of Nations. Hatred towards those they saw as 'privileged' and successful, i.e., academically gifted/Jews. Seeing other groups as holding them back and standing between them and their goals/Divine Rights, i.e., gays, women, anyone who doesn't think like them.   

Also, the high school mentality plays out in corporations, academia, government, religion. Scale.

BUT, at some point EVERYONE (even you) has had help. I'm sure there have been times when someone took the time to show you what you were doing wrong, and how to remedy it...even if it was when you something hurtful to someone else and didn't realize it until it was pointed out to you.   We're talking school on a global scale.  Humanity is a young race, with many thousands of millenia to go. This doesn't excuse horrible behavior in the least, but it does give a different perspective and understanding as to why.

[Muerte]

BUT, at some point EVERYONE (even you) has had help

  Wrong.  I am where I am today by my own hand and no one elses, no hand outs, no assistance.  The day I can not stand on my own two feet and face the world is the day I die.  If I can do, so can others, that is if they stop whining and crying about how bad life is and start doing something about it.

I'm sure there have been times when someone took the time to show you what you were doing wrong, and how to remedy it...even if it was when you something hurtful to someone else and didn't realize it until it was pointed out to you

  Again wrong.  I learned all of lifes lessons the hard way, by living life.  If I have hurt someone, well then so be it.  If it was accidental, I would apologize, but I rarely do anything accidentally.  ( But what about your father, surely he....  No he didn't.  His and my philosopy is simple.  We are all responsible for our own actions, and it is us to the person to decide what is right or wrong, we all learn by doing and experiencing, not by sitting around waiting for someone to tell us what is right and wrong.

  Which brings me to the Nazis/KKK.  These are groups led by people who had/have a political agenda.  They find their sheep, manipulate them, and let them loose on society.  While wrong in their thoughts, these  organizations would have never gotten anywhere without leadership.  Hell, organizations such as these are nothing more than the dark side of religion ( which in itself is a politically driven animal ).

   Now    if you want to continue this discussion then I think we should make a new thread, I know I asked the question, but in this thread we have strayed far afield.  Oh and this is a discussion, let nothing I have said lead you to believe that I feel any animosity to you or your thoughts/beliefs/ideas.  Matter of fact, I am thoughly enjoying myself.   

[NightSeeker]

I never thought you held any animosity towards me. Everything is a matter of perspective. Ours just happens to be different.

But, as you said  .

Years ago, the Vatican (quietly) admitted that by their own research Jesus was probably born between mid-May to late June.  It wasn't widely circulated among the Christian  press.

[Muerte]

  Ofcourse not, it would have hurt their credibility within the masses, and credibilty affords trust, even if it is blind.

[NightSeeker]

Very true. it's like how Catholics just accept Papal Infallibility as historical fact, when that doctrine has only existed since 1870.   People in the Middle Ages would have laughed their heads off (behind closed doors) at the very suggestion.

[Muerte]

  Forget the middle ages, we do it now a days as well.

[NightSeeker]

  True. I just meant from a historical perspective. Like Pope Leo X, who appointed his two sons (aged 14 and 20 respectively) as Cardinals. Many mistake blind faith for Faith , and Dogma for Truth.

[Muerte]

  The coniving whom lead the blind.  And here we go getting off of topic again, isn't there anything religion wont complicate?

[NightSeeker]

I can't think of a single thing.  Those in power have made sure that it permeates every culture and country in some way.

[Angelus]

Religion is folklore with mass following. Thats all. Everyone in this site is here because of a connection thats attached to monsters, demons and falklore. People should not laugh at someone for believing in what they do, even if science tells us its false. If that was the case then half the people here should be laughed out of town for belief in or that they are the creatures they claim to be. The catholic church is full of flaws that we can point out but we can also use biology, chemistry and physics to prove that werewolves can't exist or psychic abilities are laughable fiction. And as laughable as catholic doctrine may be, it does tell some truth, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." John 8:7, and "Do not judge, or you too will be judged." Matthew 7:1.