[NightSeeker]

At their core, every religion basically says the same things :  take care of your own flaws before you look at anothers ;  treat others the way you want to be treated; help others; you get back what you give...etc.  It's when things branch off from there, that we gt into trouble.

[rave phillaphia]

  So in a nut shell, the good book was written by people, not god.  So, on to my next question.  "What makes the bible ( or any other religious text for that matter ) correct"  What I mean by that is, why do so many christians follow it, as if it were the word of god.  God sent us his word once before ( Which is what I continue to live by to this day ), but I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere that he said "I want you to write a book, and include all of this.."

  And before I get bombarded with hate mail, its just a question, one to which I look forward to an answewr.

thats because God didn't say to write all of it down. He said these are my laws and abide them. I love it when people say it was written by God because it wasn't it was written by Rabbi's and their scribes and it was hundreds of people. I really love it when people try to say that certain books in the Hebrew Bible are narrowed down to just certain people. Yes the books Matthew through Revelation were written by one or two people per book but the TaNak has many discripancies between paragraphs let alone between books. They all try to mimic each other so that it seems consistant but come on we all know Moses couldn't have written Exodus because it talks about his death and things that happened after his death. Yes a lot of the texts were written in the Babylonian exile but the older stories were already written or orally passed and finally the people were scared to loose their heritage so wrote things down and compiled them. With this and a few hundred more years of debates with Rabbi's we have the Bible, the midrashim, the targuimim and so on and so forth.

Does it really matter if Jesus wasn't born on Christmas? It doesn't stop his life, the things he did, or the positive effect his ministry has had on thousands of people all over the world being any less special or significant?

I always think it's strange when people try and use these types of arguments to make Christianity seem like its false ... not that anyone here has but its a common trend that I've seen ... surely you'd pick a more substantial piece of evidence or a more substantial claim to try and disprove something.

[Muerte]

Does it really matter if Jesus wasn't born on Christmas? It doesn't stop his life, the things he did, or the positive effect his ministry has had on thousands of people all over the world being any less special or significant?

I always think it's strange when people try and use these types of arguments to make Christianity seem like its false ... not that anyone here has but its a common trend that I've seen ... surely you'd pick a more substantial piece of evidence or a more substantial claim to try and disprove something.

  I for one do not use Jesus’ birth as a way to disprove his works, to assume to do such would be ignorant, I do however use it as an example of how Organized religion adopts a do as I say and not as I do attitude.  Church tells us that lying is bad, that it is a sin and yet they go ahead and make Dec 25^th Jesus B-Day.  They did it willfully and with full knowledge that it was a falsification.  IMO if an organization is going to condemn someone for an action, then the organization should be held liable when they commit the same act.  Would Jesus have lied just to make things more convenient for himself?  Those 4 little words ladies and gentlemen (What Would Jesus Do) are powerful words and help you to put into perspective the integrity of the world today.

I totally agree that religious hypocrisy is a very mockery of the faith itself. Corrupt people (which we all are) but in particular those corrupt with power use religion as a force to fulfil their own greed and desires. They turn people away from the truth; they cause conflict and can dictate a whole society through unhealthy levels of control. This can be seen throughout all religion, as something as extreme as the crusades and elect-ism the catholic church gives the pope, through to Muslim women wearing the burkha’s, and the Mormon leaders who claim that their dress code and tradition are all biblical (I watched a very interesting UK Channel 4 documentary on a born again Mormon and his struggle with the power the leaders had on him and the community that he lived in. English translations of the bible were not allowed and he got one realising that the leaders were all wrong he and his family faced ex-communication and public disgrace even though he could prove that you didn’t get into heaven by works and earning God’s love.)

I personally have a very bold view that most faiths, me speaking predominantly for Christianity, have never caused a war, because it is not the faith in question that teaches the violence and hatred which comes from war but the misguided and corrupt individuals that abuse their religious authority and positions of power.

However coming from this line of argument an intelligent person wouldn’t allow idiots like these to affect their relationship with God and from actually knowing the truth. It’s about separating religious hypocrites and God from one category. I for one found this a great difficulty when I first became a Christian. I was raised in a Christian family but was a very strong and mean atheist, hating my family arguing constantly and being horrible to my mother in particular. I used to openly bully and persecute Christians, which in UK schools are a minority, including my own brother to the point they might even get some minor physical abuse. When I first became a Christian and wore eyeliner and had jet black razored hair, there were nice people who complemented me and accepted me, but there was also always someone willing to give their two-cents. Being a new Christian very set in my old ways my initial reaction was to tell them to ‘fark themselves’ and I very quickly became very distant from the church and indeed my own personal relationship with God. I associated these people, who didn’t understand God’s love grace or forgiveness, with God himself and it was a long time before I was able to pick myself back up and go back into the church community. Now realising and accepting my sexual orientation I have decided for my own sanity and peace of mind not to go around telling everyone so that as little conflict will be caused as possible. Not that I feel I need to hide it I just feel that where peace can be made it is the best way to go. And I can now thankfully very calmly and collectively tell people my opinion in an orderly and intelligent way, not belittling them but helping them see why I think that they are wrong on a biblical level.

[Muerte]

And I can now thankfully very calmly and collectively tell people my opinion in an orderly and intelligent way, not belittling them but helping them see why I think that they are wrong on a biblical level.

  It sounds to me that you speak more from a Spiritual level than a Biblical one (Biblical meaning you recant and whole believe the entire context of the bible).  I find no fault in your spirituality, in fact it sounds/looks to me as if you have reached a much higher level of righteousness than others who speak of religion however I must ask (and I am sure you knew this question was coming) what is your view on this passage?  Levi 18:22.  I am sure you already know what the passage states as you have already said you no longer share you sexual orientation with others in person (I have to assume it relates directly to the church).  Now you see why I say you have the outlook of spirituality rather than biblical.

Well for me as a Christian it all boils down to a matter of the Spirit of God (Christian Spirituality) and the Word (Christian Doctrine), which is respected as the inspired word of God and indeed the very essence of God (John 1:1) and understanding them and indeed the bible in its full context. Sorry if this drags on a bit or sounds patronizing I don’t intend either.
 
I would be as bold as to say that one without the other is useless. People can read the bible all their life but without a revelation through or of the Spirit they are just reading words on a page. Similarly the Spirit without the Word leads to a bunch of very dangerous people who have the power of God but a clumsy execution and in some cases a complete inability to execute it or lead a better life for themselves. Either can lead to discontent both with an individual’s relationship with God and discontent within the church. It allows for religious hypocrites to get into power (think the middle ages and the lack of Christian Spirituality [no Holy Spirit]). Just a bunch of Latin books that were scary and held with such reverence people burned and killed those who were different or questioned it; not only a dangerous amount of one without the other, but also a complete misunderstanding of what the bible actually teaches.
 
Now the bible is essentially the Jewish and early Christian history which shows God’s desire to know the creations he’s made. However the major problem is that as God is so holy our unrighteousness stops us from being in relationship with him. It’s like trying to force a magnet together or like putting a black stain on a perfectly white canvas. In the Old Testament people were so unclean through their ‘sin’  and had no real way of atonement that when they came in contact with the Spirit of God they would drop down dead. God didn’t punish people through this it was merely the effect of knowing pure righteousness when we as a race are so unrighteous. The rightful punishment for any and all sin is death and complete separation from God. Anyway, God decided that once man starting sinning he needed to fix this. (Not a big angry man in the clouds tutting at every opportune moment but a loving father who wants to save a sinful race ... why ... I don’t know, it still stuns me to this day that he would care, so don’t ask )
 
Anyway, some pagans or occultists might understand this well, he made covenants with mankind. This basically means that two parties have an agreement and regardless of the other parties ability to stick to the agreement the stronger party will still hold up their end of the deal. I’ll scratch your back even if you can’t manage to scratch mine. God did this with the Jewish people through animal sacrifice, as real sacrifice demands blood, symbolic of life itself, but he knew that eventually one ultimate and blameless sacrifice had to be made for a real communion with his creations so that they wouldn’t die whenever they met or came into communion. He did this through shedding the blood of Jesus, who came to earth, led a perfect life never sinning and being a beautiful bright canvas never dirtied, fully man and fully God. He was falsely accused beaten, tortured and killed in the most horrific way imaginable. So unimaginable they had to create the word excruciating to describe it (referring to crucifixion). Anyway on the cross he took on the sins of the world for all time and became sin so who ever believed in him would put their sins and burdens on him and not face eternal separation from God but would be clothed in his righteousness through what he did. Not only this, now that God could meet with his people through the spirit he could give all his gifts and  blessings like prophecy, being filled with the Spirit, prosperity, guidance, and sozo (Greek for full restoration of mind[soul], body, and spirit.) God throughout history has been on and chosen individuals and people on mass to be his people and today Christians, I believe, are those people with the lord on them. That’s why it is not a gospel of works; it is a gospel of grace and mercy. There is nothing anyone can do to earn God’s love because we already have it and there is no way to earn your way into heaven because only God could do that ... there is no room for pride or boasting.
 
Anyway that knowledge now being obtained, it means that although I now want to aspire to live the way God wants me to live and to fulfil his commands it is a natural part of the human condition that I will occasionally falter (‘the mind  is will but the flesh is weak). It says in the word that we should aspire and live in perfection, that we were once slaves and are now set free, but it also says that we will not know glorification until we are with the father, and the work he has started in us will not be completed until we are off this earthly plain. I am so grateful that God would save someone like me! Sin is something we all fight and no Christian is perfect. I know that even if I went out with another man God wouldn’t stop loving me and to be honest the bible condemns the act of homosexuality not being gay so I won’t worry about it till the day that it becomes an issue. In the past it has but I wasn’t a Christian then. It is still problematic and it’s not God’s ideal but I know how corrupt I am and I make no objection when people call me up on stuff like this but no one else can judge me inevitably because we are all fundamentally flawed and are all in need of forgiveness in some way.

[Muerte]

  So long story short, you still have feelings for other men, but since you have accepted Christ you have denied yourself the self gratification of perusing those feelings.  Did I get that right?

Well you do digress slightly from the spiritual vs biblical faith debate which your previous statement caused beause I showed through scripture the biblical teachings and doctrine on sin and grace but yes, that is what I will always strive to do, and for a few reasons. It's pleasing to God, as spiritual principles go denying the physical allows a person to gain insight into the spiritual and mental. Also what I have in Christ is better than anything I could gain on this earth.

However as I also made clear ... these are not principles that I will be able to hold so close to me 24/7. I am lucky enough to so far not been in a serious relationship with anyone or to have found someone I want to spend the rest of my life with. In the past couple years though I have slipped up a couple times, usually at parties or gatherings but never anythign more than kissing.

I also don't wish to lie, or be spiteful, or hate someone for something ro doign something wrong (all just as bad) but inevitably I will make mistakes, I will get grouchy and mean, and people will vex and rub me up the wrong way. When I recently found out that my cousins ex-boyfriend had hit her ... I was ready to kill him. I still don't know what I'd do if I saw him in person and I pray that that doesn't happen until I am ready to deal with that in a way that is pleasing to God. Bottom line is I'm not

[rave phillaphia]

see my problem is when people decide what is best for us without giving us the decision. Meaning I hate it when people try to play their own religion to get converts so do systematical moves to do so. Like I know they didn't know when Jesus was born. I mean the gospels were written over 50 years after Jesus died and it was all based on an oral tradition or some Q source. So the church decided that it would be best if they put Jesus' b-day around other major holidays (pagan and Jewish) to get converts.

Lets just say it: I have a problem with Christianity already, just the whole belief that Jesus is God or 'God's son' really bothers me. He was a teacher. He didn't focus on teaching about his death to people. I am tired of people claiming that we should focus on Jesus' death and not his life. Jesus taught people and we have forgotten his teachings, ecept for a few lines in the gospels. And don't say that Jesus wanted for us to learn about his death because I highly doubt that he went around and proclaimed that his death would bring salvation to the world! I mean Jesus didn't die because he was Christ. He died because he was a teacher and the Romans thought he was just a useless poor person and wanted to let people know that they are in power so they killed anyone who threatened their legal power, even if they were not really a threat. That's why the Roman's didn't write about him because they didn't care they killed him. It was a part of every day buisness. I mean John the Baptist had a bigger congregation AND was viewed as a small threat to Roman occupancy of Israel. I just have a problem with Jesus being God or his only son, when in the old testament God adopted sons like Saul, David (the whole Davidic line).

There is just something missing and I don't like it. I want to know more because I can't have faith if it goes against the basic moral codes brought by God (10 commandments). Why would God tell us to follow these laws and then just say they don't matter anymore because of this guy being born? That is my big issue. People disregaurd the fact that we set aside the Laws of God and put Jesus first. Paul even had issues with this because he wanted converts but couldn't get people to do it, if they had to change their whole lifestyle. The more I study the more I realize that our faith is based on acceptance of stories and many of these stories were adapted from other cultures to fit our belief system.

The teachings of Jesus are all important regardless of who you are and where you came from. Love thy neighbour, Judge not. And it is good that you question what you believe and don’t. However to say that the bible translation in particular the New Testament is unreliable or inaccurate based on a ‘Q source’ is illogical. I’ve seen your posts in other threads rave and you know that’s an unfair statement. It is also untrue to say that he didn’t focus on his death. The main three things he spoke of and that were prophecy about him hundreds, thousands of years before he was born was about his life, death and resurrection and their purposes.
Consider the prophetic Psalm 22 ‘a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.’ and in Zechariah "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."(All written before the invention of crucifixion.) Then compare that to the gospels accounts of his crucifixion ‘When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.’ ‘But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.’ Jesus himself said, ‘it is better that I go’, Even in the garden God said before Adam and Eve Genesis 3:15 ‘and I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers;  he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.". ... a few of many examples off the top of my head.

Also he didn’t die because he was just a teacher or the Romans didn’t like him, he died because the Pharisees conspired against and hated him. The Romans actual had very little to do with his death apart from the physical beating and actual act. It was the religious leaders and the masses who pushed for crucifixion. They publicly badmouthed him and denied the miracles he performed. They were desperate for a powerful and mighty messiah who would overthrow their enemies. Which Jesus one day will come back and do, but that was not his job then. He was to be a living sacrifice for the sins of man, a perfect spotless lamb who would be slaughtered as the ultimate sacrifice. To say differently shows a very limited knowledge of actual scripture. He did go around talking about his death. He kept saying that he was going to die, he even named Judas as his betrayer during the last supper.

Also as a Christian the laws of God still apply its not that they don’t matter. Jesus when questioned on this said. ‘ I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfil it.’ The problem is no human can fulfil the law 24/7 as we are fundamentally flawed and in nature corrupt. It had to be God which is why Jesus was God. Read my above post, the big one where I talk about the Word and the Spirit.

[Muerte]

Well you do digress slightly from the spiritual vs biblical faith debate which your previous statement caused beause I showed through scripture the biblical teachings and doctrine on sin and grace but yes, that is what I will always strive to do, and for a few reasons.

  Yes, it seems I digress, but only to clarify an intent.  I was looking to ascertain whether or not you still have those feeling you had before being "born again", and now that I have done so, I have another piece of bible scripture for you.

  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A27-30&version=NIV

  Now I understand that Adultery is not the same as homosexuality, but the premise is still the same.  If you think about it, then you have done it, and that is according to bible scripture.  This is why I say you are more Spiritual than Biblical.  Take it not as an insult, but as a compliment.  I can understand that you want to be biblical, but unless you can fully turn your sexuality 180 degrees, then you will always be at odds with the bible.  (I know that sin is forgiven, but the bible implies we should strive not sin at all, and when we do, it is implied that we have disappointed God by willfully doing something that is wrong/sinful)

  Now I am far from innocent when it comes to biblical behavior, a prime example can be found here.

  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-42&version=NIV

  I have never in my life turned the other cheek, nor do I ever see myself doing so.  Now I do believe there is a higher power, and when the time comes "It"' and I will discuss my future, but here in this life I will be who I am meant to be, to do otherwise would be a false presentation to others and more importantly to myself.

Well not really, there are two ways to approach this verse and its impact on our lives, the first is in this paragraph. To lust after somebody is a little more than thinking that they are attractive. Temptation is not a sin, Jesus was tempted and he was blameless, and therefore a person can be tempted I’m tempted probably every hour of the day lol but the word that is translated ‘to lust’ (in the more accurate not necessarily easier translation KJV lol) is a strong word talking about having obsessive and impure thoughts about someone. If I look at a guy and think he’s hot that is not necessarily lusting after them, however to purposely go out of my way to look at someone, fantasize about them and even act on those thoughts (even if it was by myself ... hopefully you understand my meaning) that is a sin because it isn’t just thinking their pretty anymore. The bible says that we should aspire to live on the spiritual level of existence and that does mean denying ourselves the physical sometimes but in my personal experience, and that is all I can offer you, the experience of having that spiritual relationship is far better than anything physical I’ve experienced and I’ve had sex, done hard drugs, gotten drunk. At 17 you probably think I need help but oh well, not all of us are born with silver spoons in our mouths .

The second way you can look at this is that Jesus is using this teaching to highlight the holiness of God. The Pharisees and other religious leaders of the time thought that by keeping the law fully you could attain the full righteousness of God ... true ... but it is impossible unless you are God. People feared them because they were more ‘righteous’ and they viewed themselves as God’s somewhat. They were religious hypocrites. Jesus demonstrated that they weren’t and that sin isn’t just something you do, it’s something that can live in your core. It consumes you not only physically but mentally and spiritually and these teachings lead up to his teachings about why he came to set us free. Otherwise people would say ‘I don’t need to be free from anything I’m a good enough person as it is’ That’s why in that same passage he talks about cutting your hand off. He wasn’t suggesting practically that is advisable so please put the knife down! he was merely telling us how dangerous sin is. There is a book just as a side note that I would really recommend reading if you are interested in this kind of debate about Jesus ... liar, lucky, loony, looser, lord? I am totally gonna plug it, unashamedly More Than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell  (http://www.amazon.com/More-Than-Carpenter-Josh-McDowell/dp/0842345523) definite read if you’re interested in theology or apologetics

[rave phillaphia]

The real question is if Jesus really did make a prophecy about his death? If you really look closely to historical evidence most stories that make the claims of prophecies are written after the prophets have been dead for a long time. People always change what people say so that they can get a grip with their own beliefs and to make sense of everything. The major problem with Jesus is that he was suppose to be the Messiah but it evolved into a Christ-God and not really a leader/king in the world. Its all a manipulation of words I feel. It also bothers me because when you look at some of the prophecies that Jesus said they are Greek phrases and can't translate into Aramaic! So therefore, if they don't translate how could have Jesus said them? Also if you ever noticed there is a lot of cultural mixing and Hellenistic ideas that evolved into the Jewish tradition? I dunno I have a problem with all of it.

I do understand that people believe it I just don't and am trying to find the truth. Even if that is heresy against the church I want some stability and truthfulness. Therefore lets get a shovel and start looking in some of these places Jesus has been to.

I am not saying people don't have to believe it, I just believe that whatever a person believes is what will happen to them and we should respect that they believe it but you don't have to believe it, and don't enforce it onto others.

and i am not going to argue on this anymore. I don't feel like it and its a waste of time trying to make someone understand my points of view.

[Strife]

The real question is if Jesus really did make a prophecy about his death? If you really look closely to historical evidence most stories that make the claims of prophecies are written after the prophets have been dead for a long time. People always change what people say so that they can get a grip with their own beliefs and to make sense of everything. The major problem with Jesus is that he was suppose to be the Messiah but it evolved into a Christ-God and not really a leader/king in the world. Its all a manipulation of words I feel. It also bothers me because when you look at some of the prophecies that Jesus said they are Greek phrases and can't translate into Aramaic! So therefore, if they don't translate how could have Jesus said them? Also if you ever noticed there is a lot of cultural mixing and Hellenistic ideas that evolved into the Jewish tradition? I dunno I have a problem with all of it.

I do understand that people believe it I just don't and am trying to find the truth. Even if that is heresy against the church I want some stability and truthfulness. Therefore lets get a shovel and start looking in some of these places Jesus has been to.

I am not saying people don't have to believe it, I just believe that whatever a person believes is what will happen to them and we should respect that they believe it but you don't have to believe it, and don't enforce it onto others.

and i am not going to argue on this anymore. I don't feel like it and its a waste of time trying to make someone understand my points of view.

Well (not trying to bad mouth christians) alot of christians (not all of them) dont bother to listen to what others point of view is, Mostly cuz they were handed a bible and said "follow this" Im sorry all you guys that are christian, but where is the truth in the bible? Im trying to figure this out, and No i have nothing against christians at all But i just want to know What makes you have faith? What drives you to follow the bible?