"End times" religious groups want apocalypse sooner than later, and they're relying on high tech -- and red heifers -- to hasten its arrival.

For thousands of years, prophets have predicted the end of the world. Today, various religious groups, using the latest technology, are trying to hasten it.

Their endgame is to speed the promised arrival of a messiah.

For some Christians this means laying the groundwork for Armageddon.

With that goal in mind, mega-church pastors recently met in Inglewood to polish strategies for using global communications and aircraft to transport missionaries to fulfill the Great Commission: to make every person on Earth aware of Jesus' message. Doing so, they believe, will bring about the end, perhaps within two decades.

In Iran, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has a far different vision. As mayor of Tehran in 2004, he spent millions on improvements to make the city more welcoming for the return of a Muslim messiah known as the Mahdi, according to a recent report by the American Foreign Policy Center, a nonpartisan think tank.

To the majority of Shiites, the Mahdi was the last of the prophet Muhammad's true heirs, his 12 righteous descendants chosen by God to lead the faithful.

Ahmadinejad hopes to welcome the Mahdi to Tehran within two years.

Conversely, some Jewish groups in Jerusalem hope to clear the path for their own messiah by rebuilding a temple on a site now occupied by one of Islam's holiest shrines.

Artisans have re-created priestly robes of white linen, gem-studded breastplates, silver trumpets and solid-gold menorahs to be used in the Holy Temple — along with two 6½-ton marble cornerstones for the building's foundation.

Then there is Clyde Lott, a Mississippi revivalist preacher and cattle rancher. He is trying to raise a unique herd of red heifers to satisfy an obscure injunction in the Book of Numbers: the sacrifice of a blemish-free red heifer for purification rituals needed to pave the way for the messiah.

So far, only one of his cows has been verified by rabbis as worthy, meaning they failed to turn up even three white or black hairs on the animal's body.

Linking these efforts is a belief that modern technologies and global communications have made it possible to induce completion of God's plan within this generation.

Though there are myriad interpretations of how it will play out, the basic Christian apocalyptic countdown — as described by the Book of Revelation in the New Testament — is as follows:

Jews return to Israel after 2,000 years, the Holy Temple is rebuilt, billions of people perish during seven years of natural disasters and plagues, the antichrist arises and rules the world, the battle of Armageddon erupts in the vicinity of Israel, Jesus returns to defeat Satan's armies and preside over Judgment Day.

Generations of Christians have hoped for the Second Coming of Jesus, said UCLA historian Eugen Weber, author of the 1999 book "Apocalypses: Prophecies, Cults and Millennial Beliefs Through the Ages."

"And it's always been an ultimately bloody hope, a slaughterhouse hope," he added with a sigh. "What we have now in this global age is a vaster and bloodier-than-ever Wagnerian version. But, then, we are a very imaginative race."

Apocalyptic movements are nothing new; even Christopher Columbus hoped to assist in the Great Commission by evangelizing New World inhabitants.

Some religious scholars saw apocalyptic fever rise as the year 2000 approached, and they expected it to subside after the millennium arrived without a hitch.

It didn't. According to various polls, an estimated 40% of Americans believe that a sequence of events presaging the end times is already underway. Among the believers are pastors of some of the largest evangelical churches in America, who converged at Faith Central Bible Church in Inglewood in February to finalize plans to start 5 million new churches worldwide in 10 years.

"Jesus Christ commissioned his disciples to go to the ends of the Earth and tell everyone how they could achieve eternal life," said James Davis, president of the Global Pastors Network's "Billion Souls Initiative," one of an estimated 2,000 initiatives worldwide designed to boost the Christian population.

"As we advance around the world," Davis said, "we'll be shortening the time needed to fulfill that Great Commission. Then, the Bible says, the end will come."

An opposing vision, invoked by Ahmadinejad in an address before the United Nations last year, suggests that the Imam Mahdi, a 9th century figure, will soon emerge from a well to conquer the world and convert everyone to Islam.

"O mighty Lord," he said, "I pray to you to hasten the emergence of your last repository, the promised one, that perfect and pure human being, the one that will fill this world with justice and peace."

At the appropriate time, according to Shiite tradition, the Mahdi will reappear and, along with Jesus, lead Muslims in a struggle to rid the world of corruption and establish justice.

For Christians, the future of Israel is the key to any end-times scenario, and various groups are reaching out to Jews — or proselytizing among them — to advance the Second Coming.

A growing number of fundamentalist Christians in mostly Southern states are adopting Jewish religious practices to align themselves with prophecies saying that Gentiles will stand as one with Jews when the end is near.

Evangelist John C. Hagee of the 19,000-member Cornerstone Church in San Antonio has helped 12,000 Russian Jews move to Israel, and donated several million dollars to Israeli hospitals and orphanages.

"We are the generation that will probably see the rapture of the church," Hagee said, referring to a moment in advance of Jesus' return when the world's true believers will be airlifted into heaven.

"In Christian theology, the first thing that happens when Christ returns to Earth is the judgment of nations," said Hagee, who wears a Jewish prayer shawl when he ministers. "It will have one criterion: How did you treat the Jewish people? Anyone who understands that will want to be on the right side of that question. Those who are anti-Semitic will go to eternal damnation."

On July 18, Hagee plans to lead a contingent of high-profile evangelists to Washington to make their concerns about Israel's security known to congressional leaders. More than 1,200 evangelists are expected for the gathering.

"Twenty-five years ago, I called a meeting of evangelists to discuss such an effort, and the conversation didn't last an hour," he said. "This time, I called and they all came and stayed. And when the meeting was over, they all agreed to speak up for Israel."

Underlining the sense of urgency is a belief that the end-times clock started ticking May 15, 1948, when the United Nations formally recognized Israel.

"I'll never forget that night," Hagee said. "I was 8 years old at the time and in the kitchen with my father listening to the news about Israel's rebirth on the radio. He said, 'Son, this is the most important day in the 20th century.' "

Hagee's message is carried on 160 television stations and 50 radio stations and can be seen in Africa, Europe, Australia, New Zealand and most Third World nations.

By contrast, Bill McCartney, a former University of Colorado football coach and co-founder of the evangelical Promise Keepers movement for men, which became huge in the 1990s, has had a devil of a time getting his own apocalyptic campaign off the ground.

It's called The Road to Jerusalem, and its mission is to convert Jews to Christianity — while there is still time.

"Our whole purpose is to hasten the end times," he said. "The Bible says Jews will be brought to jealousy when they see Christians and Jewish believers together as one — they'll want to be a part of that. That's going to signal Jesus' return."

Jews and others who don't accept Jesus, he added matter-of-factly, "are toast."

McCartney, who only a decade ago sermonized to stadium-size crowds of Promise Keepers, said finding people to back his sputtering cause has been "like plowing cement."

Given end-times scenarios saying that non-believers will die before Jesus returns — and that the antichrist will rule from Jerusalem's rebuilt Holy Temple — Jews have mixed feelings about the outpouring of support Israel has been getting from evangelical organizations.

"I truly believe John Hagee is at once a daring, beautiful person — and quite dangerous," said Orthodox Rabbi Brad Hirschfield, vice president of the National Jewish Center for Learning and Leadership in New York.

"I sincerely recognize him as a hero for bringing planeloads of people to Israel at a time when people there were getting blown up by the busloads," Hirschfield said. "But he also believes that the only path to the father is through Jesus. That leaves me out."

Meanwhile, in what has become a spectacular annual routine, Jews — hoping to rebuild the Holy Temple destroyed by the Romans in AD 70 — attempt to haul the 6 1/2 -ton cornerstones by truck up to the Temple Mount, the site now occupied by the Dome of the Rock shrine. Each year, they are turned back by police.

Among those turned away is Gershon Solomon, spokesman for Jerusalem's Temple Institute. When the temple is built, he said, "Islam is over."

"I'm grateful for all the wonderful Christian angels wanting to help us," Solomon added, acknowledging the political support from "Christians who are now Israel's best lobbyists in the United States."

However, when asked to comment on the fate of non-Christians upon the Second Coming of Jesus, he said, "That's a very embarrassing question. What can I tell you? That's a very terrible Christian idea.

"What kind of religion is it that expects another religion will be destroyed?"

But are all of these efforts to hasten the end of the world a bit like, well, playing God?

Some Christians, such as Roman Catholics and some Protestant denominations, believe in the Second Coming but don't try to advance it. It's important to be ready for the Second Coming, they say, though its timetable cannot be manipulated.

Hirschfield said he prays every day for the coming of the Jewish messiah, but he too believes that God can't be hurried.

"For me," he said, "the messiah is like the mechanical bunny at a racetrack: It always stays a little ahead of the runners but keeps the pace toward a redeemed world.

"Trouble is, there are many people who want to bring a messiah who looks just like them. For me, that kind of messianism is spiritual narcissism."

But some Christian leaders say they aren't playing God; they're just carrying out his will.

Ted Haggard, president of the National Assn. of Evangelicals, says the commitment to fulfilling the Great Commission has naturally intensified along with the technological advances God provided to carry out his plans.

Over in Mississippi, Lott believes that he is doing God's work, and that is why he wants to raise a few head of red heifers for Jewish high priests. Citing Scripture, Lott and others say a pure red heifer must be sacrificed and burned and its ashes used in purification rituals to allow Jews to rebuild the temple.

But Lott's plans have been sidetracked.

Facing a maze of red tape and testing involved in shipping animals overseas — and rumors of threats from Arabs and Jews alike who say the cows would only bring more trouble to the Middle East — he has given up on plans to fly planeloads of cows to Israel. For now.

In the meantime, some local ranchers have expressed an interest in raising their own red heifers for Israel, and fears of hoof-and-mouth disease and blue tongue forced Lott to relocate his only verified red heifer — a female born in 1993 — to Nebraska.

Cloning is out of the question, he said, because the technique "is not approved by the rabbinical council of Israel." Artificial insemination has so far failed to produce another heifer certified by rabbis.

"Something deep in my heart says God wants me to be a blessing to Israel," Lott said in a telephone interview. "But it's complicated. We're just not ready to send any red heifers over there."

If not now, when?

"If there's a sovereign God with his hand in the affairs of men, it'll happen, and it'll be a pivotal event," he said. "That time is soon. Very soon."

"What kind of religion is it that expects another religion will be destroyed

And therein emerges the fundamental contradiction that has thus far lain silent within the Zionist-Evangelical alliance,  an inherent  flaw that will toll the evanatual death-knell of this questionable unity. The suposed  friendship of both groups is based on an overriding hatred and  fear of Islam. But once the much maligned Islamic foe is vanquised, the Evagelicals will expect the Jews to embrace Jesus whom the latter revile as a false prophet.  The Jews as the chosen people of God? Hardly the case if they remain faithful to the beliefs of their ancestors by persisting in their denial of the divinity of Jesus. And so Israel shall become fertile ground for the arrival of a second Holocust, with the authors of this new atrocity not being the inhumane and monstrous Muslims, but in a powerful twist of irony, the beloved ''Christian angels'' of the Jews. If I were Israel, I'd be seeking to mend ancient feuds  with the Arabs instead of looking for assistance from the very ones who would cheerfully expunge the Jewish race from existence when the time for it comes.

[Zak Roy Yoballa]

I'm not big on the whole "End Times" fear and loathing.  We have been in the end times for two thousand years, to an imortal God, the earth's end time may be near but for us, it may be another two thousand years away.  The bottom line is your will end with in the next 90 years or so.  What can be done now to ensure your eternal existance with the Father? 

MM,

Jews as the chosen people of God,  yes.  The Words says so.  As far as Islam goes, I understand and can even partly agree that the US is not exactly squeaky clean with its dealings with them.  But I don't see a giant conspiracy to wipe out all of Islam.  I personally view anyone who isn't a Christian with some pity and guilt.  Not out of some inflated self importance but I know what will happen to them.  I deserve the very same fate.  The only thing that is different is that I have knelt before the Lord and begged the forgivenss He promised.  I feel guilty for that reason AND how little I have done to witness to society, be it wiccan or Islamic.

Not everyone is out to get you.  In fact one of the best aid organizations I've ever had the pleasure of donating to is the Salvation Army who will give to anyone what they have regardless of who you are.  They will not push any religon any anyone but will answer any questions you may have with the best of their ability.  The Salvation Army is a Christian denomination, and a fine one at that.  They would help an Islamic fundamentalist who was advocating the death of all Christianity if he needed it.

Just my thoughts

ZRY   

I'm not anti-Christian. Just anti-genocide. The Jews may be God's Chosen people as you say,  but it does not automatically confer on them the right to abuse native Arab tribal populations that were unfortunate enough to inhabit lands that the Zionist colonialists coveted for themselves. Take this for example.

The Israelie armed forces are notorious for abducting Palestinain children, victims who are doomed to rot in in the hellish prison conditions that the state of Israel has condemned them to, over some imagined crime on their part.   Just picture yourself being the ten year old child who will never see his mother again simply because Jewish settlers see all native Arab as dangerous parasites to be exterminated, regardless of their age. But when a Jewish soldier is taken in battle as a prisoner of war in retaliation for the murder of several Palestinians by the Israelie military, the Jewish nation screams for savage vengeance against the ''terrorist'' Palestinians and begins to devastate their cities, causing great misery for thousands of ordinary people. Yet Christian fanatics in the U.S command that their more compassionate brothers and sisters remain silent about Jewish crimes against the Palestinian people, as the Jews being the children of God, are above all moral judgement. That's like a German saying the Holocust was justified since it was in the interest of the Aryan race, nature's chosen heirs. It's not a comparision that many Jews or their militant Christian allies will enjoy, but it's accurate.  Yes, there are a lot of  deacent Christian dedicated to making the world a better place for everyone to live in, but it's high time they stop allowing Israel's abusive treatment  of the Palestinians to go uncommented upon. Jesus peached compassion, so let's start seeing some of that in occupied Palestine. 

The Israelie armed forces are notorious for abducting Palestinain children, victims who are doomed to rot in in the hellish prison conditions that the state of Israel has condemned them to, over some imagined crime on their part.

You fail to mention that these are the children sent by the Palestinians to blow themselves up to kill Israelis and become martyrs. You also fail to mention that the Palestinian leadership creates such a disfunctional, debased society that sitting in an Israeli prison actually sounds good to some Palestinian youngsters.

I don't have an age breakdown at hand, but there are only 300 Palestinian prisoners under the age of 18. Futhermore, since when is a 10 year old wearing a suicide bomb less dangerous and somehow more cute than an 18 year old doing the same thing?



MORE PALESTINIAN KIDS
MORE PALESTINIAN KIDS
MORE PALESTINIAN KIDS
MORE PALESTINIAN KIDS

Staying on the subject of using children as propaganda (which your post does), media reports often highlight instances in which Palestinian children have been killed or injured by Israeli troops or policemen and these reports have generated much criticism of Israeli policies. But, the appearance of Palestinian children in riots or other dangerous situations is not accidental. The Palestinian Authority has intentionally mobilized Palestinian children to man the front line as a tool in its struggle against Israel, frequently using them as shields to protect Palestinian gunmen. This mobilization of Palestinian youth has been facilitated by the long-term impact of Palestinian Authority curricula, government-controlled media, and summer camp programs, which indoctrinate the youth for armed confrontation with Israel.

The media visuals of a bleeding Palestinian child surrounded by screaming relatives are too powerful to permit most people to pause to consider why and how the child was in harm's way. One of the best known examples was the tragic death of Mohammed Al-Dura, the twelve-year-old from Gaza who was shot dead in his father's arms while cameramen filmed it. This ghastly event mobilized sentiment around the world to condemn Israel for using excessive force, even though there are many questions about how the child came to be in that place, how the media happened to be ready to film the event, and who fired the fatal shots.

The standard tactic is to use children as bait, burning tyres and shooting slingshots, to attract the television cameras and distract the IDF. At the same time, well-armed Palestinian gunmen in ambush positions are ready to shoot at Israeli targets. Since the Palestinian public knows that Israeli soldiers are ordered not to shoot live ammunition at children, the children act as shields to protect Palestinian snipers who shoot to kill any exposed members of the IDF. When the youths rush forward throwing stones and Molotov cocktails, Palestinian snipers on rooftops and in alleys take aim at the IDF. On some occasions Palestinian Arabs have shot children from behind, a fact that seldom makes it into media reports of the incidents. According to IDF sources, Palestinian gunmen have also fired shots from within a rioting crowd of civilians.


~ Viper ~

Some European journalists covering the conflict have been  injured while trying to shield Palestinain children from the bullets of Israelie snipers. As these reporters will attest, in none of these cases did the children pose any threat to the soldiers, but they were still targeted nevetheless. And the Israelie military has been known to doctor tapes to make it appear as if Palestinian parents delibrately recruit their children into becoming sucide bombers. As for trusting IDF sources, I'm not liable to listen to people who open fire on journalists trying to film their atroicities.

'' The tiny hole buried under Asma Mughayar's thick black hair, just above her right ear, is an illusion, according to the Israeli army. So is her family's insistance that Asma, 16, and her younger brother Ahmed, were both shot through the head by an Israeli soldier as they fed their pigeons and collected the laundry from the roof of their home in Rafah refugee camp. But their corpses tell a different story, as do the bodies of other children brought to Rafah's hospital and makeshift mortuaries even before yesterday's carnage, in which Israeli tanks and helicopters fired on a peaceful protest by Palestinians in the camp, killing 10 demonstrators, according to Palestinian paramedics.

Israel disputes the Mughayar family's account: that soldiers shot the children on Tuesday. Hours after their death, Israeli officials blamed the Palestinians, telling reporters that Asma and Ahmed had been killed in a "work accident" - a euphemism for bomb-makers blowing themselves up - or by Palestinian fighters who had left a landmine in the street.

"A preliminary investigation indicates they were killed by a bomb intended to be used against soldiers. It was set outside a building by Palestinians to hit an Israeli vehicle. This is probably what happened," a military spokesman said yesterday.

Dr Ali Moussa, head of Rafah hospital, is as furious at the claim as he is at Israel's assertion that almost all the 20 or more people killed during the army's seizure of the Tel al-Sultan district of the Rafah refugee camp were armed men.

"They are liars, liars, liars, because these children have bullet wounds to the head. There is no doubt about it," he says.

Dr Ahmed Abu Nkaria, who pronounced the Mughayar children dead, insists on proving the manner of their killing. He pulls Asma's body from the mortuary's refrigeration unit and fumbles through the teenager's hair to reveal the hole where the bullet entered above one ear and ripped a much larger wound as it emerged above the other''.

Since when was feeding pigeons dangerous to the safety of IDF personnel? I'm astounded,really.

What European reporters, under what circumstances?

Your main quote is from "Guardian" reporter Chris McGreal. Even here in the country it is published in, the Guardian is seen as a national joke.

Your argument is circular as it cannot be proven under what circumstances the children were killed. It is written from an already acknowledged biased point of view (the Guardian) by a biased reporter (C. McGreal.) It is just another piece of propaganda.

Since when was feeding pigeons dangerous to the safety of IDF personnel? I'm astounded,really

I see. And this joyful little interlude was taking place on a calm rooftop oasis in the middle of

"...a peaceful protest by Palestinians in the camp..."

If they were shot, they were probably shot by trigger happy Palestinians with their usual sense of public safety spraying automatic weapon fire randomly into the air and the horizon.

So the circumstances are... dubious at best. What about some undisputed child deaths..?

Ofir Rahum, 16, of Ashkelon, traveled to Jerusalem to meet a young woman with whom he had conducted a relationship over the Internet. She then drove him toward Ramallah. At a prearranged location, another vehicle drove up and three Palestinian gunmen inside shot Rahum more than 15 times. One terrorist drove off with Rahum's body and dumped it, while the others fled in the second vehicle

Shalhevet Pass, age 10 months, was killed by sniper fire at the entrance to the Avraham Avinu neighborhood in Hebron

Eliran Rosenberg-Zayat, 15, of Givat Shmuel and Naftali Lanzkron, 13, of Petah Tikva were killed in a suicide bombing at the Mifgash Hashalom ("peace stop") gas station several hundred meters from an IDF roadblock near the entrance to Kalkilya, east of Kfar Saba. Four people were injured. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Yossi Ish-Ran, 14, and Kobi Mandell, 14, both of Tekoa, were found stoned to death in a cave about 200 meters from the small community south of Jerusalem where they lived.

Marina Berkovizki, 17, Anya Kazachkov, 16, of Holon; Katherine Kastaniyada-Talkir, 15, of Ramat Gan; Aleksei Lupalu, 16, of the Ukraine; Mariana Medvedenko, 16, of Tel Aviv; Irina Nepomneschi, 16, of Bat Yam;Yulia Nelimov, 16 of Tel Aviv; Raisa Nimrovsky, 15, of Netanya; Liana Sakiyan, 16, of Tel Aviv; Maria Tagilchev, 14, of Netanya; and Irena Usdachi, 18, of Holon were killed when a suicide bomber blew himself  outside a disco near Tel Aviv's Dolphinarium along the seafront promenade just before midnight on Friday. Yevgenia Dorfman, 15, of Bat Yam died subsequently from their injuries. 120 people were wounded in the bombing.

Yehuda Shoham, aged 5 months, of Shilo, died of injuries incurred in a fatal stoning on June 5. He was critically injured by a rock thrown at the family's car near Shilo in Samaria. Probably by some cute, high spirited 10 yr old Palestinian, eh, Maggot?

Ronen Landau, 17, of Givat Ze'ev, was shot and killed by Palestinian terrorists while returning home from Jerusalem with his father.

Michal Raziel, 16, of Jerusalem; Malka Roth, 15, of Jerusalem Ra'aya Schijveschuurder, 14, of Neria; Avraham Yitzhak Schijveschuurder, 4, of Neria; Hemda Schijveschuurder, 2, of Neria; Tamara Shimashvili, 8, of Jerusalem; and Yocheved Shoshan, 10, of Jerusalem were killed and about 130 injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria on the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.

Aliza Malka, 17, a boarding student at Kibbutz Merav, was killed by terrorists in a drive-by shooting at the entrance to the kibbutz in the Gilboa region

Shoshana Ben Ishai, 16, of Betar Illit and Menashe (Meni) Regev, 14, of Jerusalem were killed when a Palestinian terrorist opened fire with a sub-machine gun shortly before 16:00 at a No. 25 Egged bus at the French Hill junction in northern Jerusalem. 45 people were injured in the attack.

Assaf Avitan, 15, of Jerusalem, Ya'akov Danino, 17, of Jerusalem, Golan Turgeman, 15, of Jerusalem, Adam Weinstein, 14, of Givon Hahadasha when explosive devices were detonated by two suicide bombers close to 11:30 P.M. Saturday night on Ben Yehuda Street, the pedestrian mall in the center of Jerusalem.

Yair Amar, 13, of Emmanuel, Avraham Nahman Nitzani, 17, of Betar Illit; were killed when three terrorists attacked a No. 189 Dan bus and several passenger cars with a roadside bomb, anti-tank grenades, and light arms fire near the entrance to Emmanuel in Samaria at 18:00 P.M. About 30 others were injured. Both Fatah and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

Nehemia Amar, 15, and Keren Shatsky, 15, both of Ginot  Shomron were killed and about 30 people were wounded, six seriously, when a suicide bomber blew himself up on Saturday night at a pizzeria in the shopping mall in Karnei Shomron in Samaria. Rachel Thaler, 16, of Ginot Shomron died of her wounds on February 27. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack.

Shiraz Nehmad, 7, Liran Nehmad, 3, of Rishon Lezion;  Shaul Nehmad, 15, of Rishon Lezion;Lidor Ilan, 12, and his sister Oriah Ilan, 18 months, of Rishon Lezion; Ya'akov Avraham, 7 months, of Jerusalem. Avraham Eliahu Nehmad, 7, of Rishon Lezion, were killed and over 50 were injured, 4 critically, in a suicide bombing at 19:15 on Saturday evening near a yeshiva in the ultra-Orthodox Beit Yisrael neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem where people had gathered for a bar-mitzva celebration. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.

Avia Malka, 9 months, of South Africa, when two Palestinians opened fire and threw grenades at cars and pedestrians in the coastal city of Netanya on Saturday  close to the city's boardwalk and hotels.

Atara Livne, 15, of Kibbutz Hanita was killed when two terrorists opened fire from an ambush on Israeli vehicles.

Rachel Levy, 17 killed  when a female suicide bomber blew herself up in the Kiryat Yovel supermarket in Jerusalem.

The brothers Ran Koren, 18, and Gal Koren , 15, of Haifa killed with a suicide bombing in Haifa, in the Matza restaurant of the gas station near the Grand Canyon shopping mall.

Elmar Dezhabrielov, 16 when a suicide bomber detonated himself in the Rothschild Street downtown pedestrian mall of Rishon Lezion.

Netanel Riachi, 17, of Kochav Ya'akov; Gilad Stiglitz, 14, of Yakir; and Avraham Siton, 17, of Shilo - three yeshiva high school students - were killed when a Palestinian gunman infiltrated the community and opened fire on the teenagers playing basketball.

Hadar Hershkowitz, 14, of Herzliya was killed and 15 others were wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber set off a relatively small pipe bomb at a shwarma restaurant in Herzliya.

Shani Avi-Zedek, 15, of Jerusalem, Galila Bugala, 11, of Jerusalem; in a suicide bombing at the Patt junction in Egged bus no. 32A.

Shmuel Yerushalmi, 17, of Shilo , and Gal Eisenman, 5, of Ma'ale Adumim, when a suicide bomber blew himself up at a crowded bus stop and hitchhiking post at the French Hill intersection in northern Jerusalem.

Neria Shabo, 16, Zvika Shabo, 12, and Avishai Shabo, 5 were murdered when a terrorist entered their home in Itamar.

Sarah Tiferet Shilon, 8 months, of Emmanuel; Yonatan Gamliel, 16, of Emmanuel during a terrorist attack on Dan bus No. 189 traveling from Bnei Brak to Emmanuel.

Osnat Abramov, 16, of Holon; 14 people were killed and some 50 wounded when a car bomb containing about 100 kilograms of explosives was detonated next to a No. 841 Egged bus from Kiryat Shmona to Tel-Aviv, while traveling along Wadi Ara on Route No. 65 toward Hadera.

Revital Ohayon, 34, and her two sons, Matan, 5, and Noam, were killed when a terrorist infiltrated the kibbut metzer.

Ilan Perlman, 8, of Jerusalem; Yafit Ravivo, 14 of Jerusalem; Michael Sharshevsky, 16, and his mother ,of Jerusalem were killed and some 50 wounded by a suicide bomber on a No. 20 Egged bus on Mexico Street in the Kiryat Menahem neighborhood of Jerusalem.

Smadar Firstater, 16, of Haifa; Kamar Abu Hamed, 12, of Daliat al-Carmel; Daniel Haroush, 16, of Safed; Tom Hershko, 15, of Haifa; Elizabeth Katzman, 17, of Haifa; Tal Kerman, 17, of Haifa , Abigail Litle, 14, of Haifa; Yuval Mendelevitch, 13, of Haifa; Asaf Zur (Zollinger), 17, of Haifa. were killed and 53 wounded in a suicide bombing of an Egged bus #37 on Moriah Blvd. in the Carmel section of Haifa, en route to Haifa University.

Moran Menachem, 17 of Jerusalem, found near Hadassah Ein Karem Hospital in Jerusalem, brutally beaten and stabbed to death

Noam Leibowitz, 7, of Yemin Orde was killed and three members of her family wounded in a shooting attack near the Kibbutz Eyal

Haviv Dadon, 16, of Shlomi, was struck in the chest and killed by shrapnel from an anti-aircraft shell fired by Hizbullah terrorists in Lebanon.

Avraham Bar-Or, 12, of Jerusalem; Binyamin Bergman, 15, of Jerusalem; Elisheva Meshulami, 16, of Bnei Brak; Tehilla Nathanson, 3, of Zichron Ya'acov; Issachar Reinitz, 9, of Netanya; Shmuel Taubenfeld, 3 months, of New Square, New York (and his mother), Shmuel Zargari, 11 months, of Jerusalem were killed and over 130 wounded when a Palestinian suicide bomber detonated himself on a No. 2 Egged bus in Jerusalem's Shmuel Hanavi neighborhood.

Tomer Almog, 9, and Assaf Staier, 11, all of Haifa (and their father, grandmother and grandfather), Liran Zer-aviv  4, and Noya Zer-Aviv , 1, all of Kibbutz Yagur.(and their parents) were killed, including four children, and 60 wounded in a suicide bombing carried out by a female terrorist from Jenin in the Maxim restaurant in Haifa.























But hey! I'm forgetting something: these are just worthless Jews, legitimate targets for the Arabs and Palestinians who proudly boast that they will wipe Israel of the map.

As the besieged parents of Israel keep asking, "Why are the lives of our children less important than the lives of Palestinian children..?"

But hey! I'm forgetting something: these are just worthless Jews, legitimate targets for the Arabs and Palestinians who proudly boast that they will wipe Israel of the map.
As the besieged parents of Israel keep asking, "Why are the lives of our children less important than the lives of Palestinian children..?"

Posting faces like that is a bit too strong, DV, and for me it's just another way (the other way round) to run a propaganda to support a specific party.
Nobody said Jews children are less important than Palestinians. And if I had to choose how to die between being shot by a Israeli soldier and being blown up by a Palestinian suicide-bomber I'd opt for the first, but it doesn't make a difference.
Children are dying on both parts, and not only children even if they are the one we (safe at home) may feel more sorry for.
As for the "worthless Jews, legitimate targets for the Arabs and Palestinians", as you so well put it because of the effect you know it's going to cause on people reading this statement.
Guilt can be a wonderful thing to play upon.
No matter what you say, it's war and they (infants, children, youth, adults, elderlies) are dying on both parts.

1. I am merely demonstrating that the biased, virulently anti-Semitic spin of Maggot Man's posts can be countered by images and sentiments that are just as strong from the other side.
2. Why is it "too strong"? It is no different to the unsubstantiated dross reported about in the previous post.
3. Why wait until the Jewish point of view is pushed before complaining? Are you anti-Semitic?

As for the "worthless Jews, legitimate targets for the Arabs and Palestinians", as you so well put it because of the effect you know it's going to cause on people reading this statement.
Guilt can be a wonderful thing to play upon.

...but its perfectly acceptable to use the word "atrocity" when discussing IDF military actions?
It's neutral point-of-view to state "the Jewish nation screams for savage vengeance against the ''terrorist'' Palestinians and begins to devastate their cities, causing great misery for thousands of ordinary people"?..."Israel's abusive treatment  of the Palestinians"...."when a Jewish soldier is taken in battle as a prisoner of war in retaliation for the murder of several Palestinians"...

That's just wishy-washy liberalism and terrorism-apologetics of the worse kind.

2. Why is it "too strong"? It is no different to the unsubstantiated dross reported about in the previous post.
The list is too strong. The images make it far too strong. I'm not saying don't show them, but he made a post, answer with a post not with a war bullettin.


3. Why wait until the Jewish point of view is pushed before complaining? Are you anti-Semitic?
Your question is very offensive, DV.

As for the "worthless Jews, legitimate targets for the Arabs and Palestinians", as you so well put it because of the effect you know it's going to cause on people reading this statement.
Guilt can be a wonderful thing to play upon.

...but its perfectly acceptable to use the word "atrocity" when discussing IDF military actions?
Atrocity is acceptable as long as it is one, not only for IDF actions.
You know, the clever bombings? The military targets which turned out to be hospitals or houses?
Of course it's an atrocity to make a bus explode as well. Gee, it's worse because it's pure terrorism. 

It's neutral point-of-view to state "the Jewish nation screams for savage vengeance against the ''terrorist'' Palestinians and begins to devastate their cities, causing great misery for thousands of ordinary people"?..."Israel's abusive treatment  of the Palestinians"...."when a Jewish soldier is taken in battle as a prisoner of war in retaliation for the murder of several Palestinians"...

You should know better than to ask an Italian this one. For in 1943, 33 German soldiers occupying our territory got killed. Ten Italians paid for each one of them.
It happened in Roma, and if you go to Via Rasella (which is such a narrow road) you can still see the holes caused by flying bullets. It's creepy.
I know my history. And I don't really think Palestinians are right, but faults fall upon both parts. 


That's just wishy-washy liberalism and terrorism-apologetics of the worse kind.
If you're talking about me, you missed the target. Big time.

The list is too strong. The images make it far too strong. I'm not saying don't show them, but he made a post, answer with a post not with a war bullettin.

The images are REALITY, not unproven, speculative propaganda Lets get back to basics: this was a thread about the apocalypse; MM chose to hijack it and turn it instead into an anti-Semitic diatribe. The (unrelated) use of a fictional 10 year old crying for his mommy because he has been kidnapped by the Jews is like something straight from the pen of Goebbels. Dress it up how you like.

Your question is very offensive, DV.

Why? It is a perfectly legitimate question.

You know, the clever bombings? The military targets which turned out to be hospitals or houses?

Don't showboat with baseless propaganda. If you think this happened, quote actual cases... Here's a story about attacks on hospitals:

Suicide attack at hospital thwarted

Wafa Samir Ibrahim Bas (a 21 year old woman from Gaza) suffered severe injuries when a gas canister exploded in her house while she was cooking last year. In the framework of humanitarian assistance offered by Israel to the Palestinians, she was admitted to the Soroka Medical Center [in Beersheva] and treated between last December and January this year for burns. Taking advantage of the fact that she had access into Israel and was due to be seen by doctors at the hospital on Monday, she agreed to a request by Al Aksa Brigade commanders in Gaza to don explosives and blow up as instructed, in a "crowded area in the hospital."

A senior Israeli security official said human rights groups have often harshly criticized Israel in the past for carrying out inspections on sick Palestinians requiring medical treatment in Israel. "Our dilemma is how to differentiate between those who really seek treatment and sometimes those who may suffer from terminal illnesses and figure they have nothing to lose by agreeing to carry out a suicide attack," the official said. "They are the ones we most fear, as they have nothing to lose, they gain popularity by becoming shahids (martyrs), and they are assured that their families will be taken care of. They are the ones we most fear," he said.

Several examples in which Palestinians took advantage of Israel's humanitarian assistance to launch attacks include the arrest of a Hamas fugitive in Ramallah in March this year. The fugitive, a resident of Gaza, succeeded in entering the West Bank on the pretext that he was a possible kidney donor. He had planned to launch a suicide bomb attack in Israel.

One unfortunate result is that Palestinians likely will have an even harder time entering Israel for necessary medical treatment.

It's neutral point-of-view to state "the Jewish nation screams for savage vengeance against the ''terrorist'' Palestinians and begins to devastate their cities, causing great misery for thousands of ordinary people"?..."Israel's abusive treatment  of the Palestinians"...."when a Jewish soldier is taken in battle as a prisoner of war in retaliation for the murder of several Palestinians"...

You should know better than to ask an Italian this one. For in 1943, 33 German soldiers occupying our territory got killed. Ten Italians paid for each one of them.
It happened in Roma, and if you go to Via Rasella (which is such a narrow road) you can still see the holes caused by flying bullets. It's creepy.
I know my history. And I don't really think Palestinians are right, but faults fall upon both parts.

My point was:
1. The Jewish state is NOT screaming for vengeance
2. Palestinian cities are not being devastated
3. In war, one doesn't take prisoners in "retaliation"
4. If it is war, the Palestinians should abide by the Geneva convention; and stop using children as troops

That's just wishy-washy liberalism and terrorism-apologetics of the worse kind.
If you're talking about me, you missed the target. Big time.

It is not reflected in your post.


I stand by my posts and how I word them and illustrate them. Emotive issues are not the sole domain of the liars on the Palestinian side. If you find the pictures of murdered Jewish children offensive, write to your government asking them to take action against Arab terrorists and the Palestinian Authority. 

The images are REALITY, not unproven, speculative propaganda
I’ll tell you what, DV. As a matter of fact, generally speaking, the list is a reality. Images might be propaganda.


Lets get back to basics: this was a thread about the apocalypse; MM chose to hijack it and turn it instead into an anti-Semitic diatribe. The (unrelated) use of a fictional 10 year old crying for his mommy because he has been kidnapped by the Jews is like something straight from the pen of Goebbels. Dress it up how you like.
I don’t like this dressing. Not my flavour at all. And leave the Goebbels and his kin behind, because now you are going very off topic. You want to talk Holocaust? Do it, but not in thread about Israel and Palestine. It’s out of context.

Your question is very offensive, DV.
Why? It is a perfectly legitimate question.
Then the answer is no. I have Jews friends, can’t say the same (sue me) for Arabs.
Don't showboat with baseless propaganda. If you think this happened, quote actual cases...
It was evident I was referring to other countries. You know, I know.

Here's a story about attacks on hospitals:
Nice to see you only quote what boosts your point, and forget somewhere what was in my previous that would make sense to the hospital attack: I think they are terrorists. Do you get it? Toc toc… Somebody’s home?

My point was:
1. The Jewish state is NOT screaming for vengeance
Would you kindly define “vengeance” as you conceive it?

2. Palestinian cities are not being devastated
No, they are being taken care of. Some are under siege, other (as for camps) obliterated, if you prefer.

 
3. In war, one doesn't take prisoners in "retaliation"
4. If it is war, the Palestinians should abide by the Geneva convention; and stop using children as troops
They should stop using terrorism, first, and martyrdom as source of kamikaze hiring

That's just wishy-washy liberalism and terrorism-apologetics of the worse kind.
If you're talking about me, you missed the target. Big time.
It is not reflected in your post.
What you get from my post doesn’t probably get to you until you don’t step down your podium which makes you higher than the rest of the mass (which I’m glad to be part of)

I stand by my posts and how I word them and illustrate them. Emotive issues are not the sole domain of the liars on the Palestinian side. f you find the pictures of murdered Jewish children offensive, write to your government asking them to take action against Arab terrorists and the Palestinian Authority. 

Listen, you are really raving on this one.
Unfortunately my government is not as powerful or influent as yours, but I’ve been demonstrating for such a long time whenever I had the chance that your statement is absurd and only makes me want to yell.
I’ve been demonstrating with Palestinians when I felt they were right, and with Israelis when I wanted to. Unfortunately (because it’s classier in photography) the world is not black and white to me.
But you don’t listen. You don’t read. You shoot (right word for it) back without thinking first.

My first memory of my job is a picture that was shot in 2000 in Jerusalem, after a Palestinian blew himself and other people away. It was about a woman, dressed with white overalls as a real CSI, wearing gloves and taking pieces of people off the street. It wasn’t bloody at all. But the fact, not evident yet so strongly perceived, that she was taking pieces of a victim with large tweezers, I still can’t forget.
How can you possible live in a place where you get on a bus and you don’t know if it’s going to reach its destination? A daily Russian roulette with fate.

in the end i think everybody dies.