Monstrous
Monstropedia => Mythical Monsters => Topic started by: Mr. Kreepy on January 25, 2009, 05:31:00 AM
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Ogres are my favorite mythical monster, so I figured I'd make a general discussion thread dedicated to them and all their cousins, like giants, trolls, etc...
Definition of an Ogre, from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogre): "An ogre (feminine: ogress) is a large, cruel and hideous humanoid monster, featured in mythology, folklore and fiction. Ogres are often depicted in fairy tales and folklore as feeding on human beings, and have appeared in many classic works of literature. In art, ogres are often depicted with a large head, abundant hair and beard, a voracious appetite, and a strong body."
Anyone who knows me well can understand why I like these things so much. :laugh:
Some stories that have included ogres or other monstrous giant things are Jack And The Beanstalk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_and_the_beanstalk), Puss In Boots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puss_in_Boots_(fairy_tale)), Bluebeard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebeard), Gargantua and Pantagruel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargantua_and_Pantagruel), and Hop o' My Thumb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hop_o%27_My_Thumb).
Now, I've seen ogres depicted as everything from big ugly humans to furry animal-like monsters. Also, there's a lot of crossover between ogres, giants, trolls, goblins, etc. in a lot of modern fantasy and traditional mythology and folklore. What do you think an ogre is, Monstrous people?
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4225/ogrelf4.jpg)
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My understanding of ogres has been profoundly influenced by the variosu depictions of them that I've encountered in fantasy novels, so I tend to see them as large and extremely ugly humanoids with savage tendencies and a rather evident lack of intelligence.
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While we're still on the subject of ogres, how can you distinguish them from trolls as far as actual folklore is concerned? Modern fantasy fiction makes ogres marginally smarter than trolls which are depicted as essentially mindless brutes. Is there any basis for this seperation in authentic folklore? Thanks.
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Really, I haven't the foggiest idea where that idea came from.
Trolls in folklore were actually supposed to be pretty damn smart, and ogres just as much so, though more concerned with filling their bellies and getting what they want than being overtly malicious like trolls could be.
As far as the difference between the two of them...They're both rooted in the proto-Indo-European beliefs in giant god-like beings, that eventually became the Titans of Greek myth, the Jötunn of Norse myth, and the Formorians of Gaelic Celt myth. These beings became the giants, ogres, and trolls of later Christianized folk beliefs.
Short version: Except for the fact that ogres are often depicted as ugly human-like things, and trolls are usually a bit more monstrous, there really isn't a difference.
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Trolls in folklore were actually supposed to be pretty damn smart, and ogres just as much so, though more concerned with filling their bellies and getting what they want than being overtly malicious like trolls could be.
This statement seems to indicate that ogres might have been somewhat less devious than trolls. Am I accurate in saying as much? Thanks.
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No, just more selfish than outright evil, really.
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With regard to what you mentioned previously about ogres and trolls alike being merely demoted versions of ancient supernatural beings , do you think that the essentially negative characteristics that the Christians story-tellers endowed them with, stems from the fact that the entities that inspired them, were already regarded as malovelant beings to begin with? After all, the examples that you mentioned like the Yotun and the Formorians, were seen as the arch-foes of the ancient pagan gods.
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A fable 2 rock troll pwns any one of them.................. provided it was twice as tall as it was in the videogame....
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Ah...Always an interesting subject. I've been doing a bit of research for some time on the relation between trolls, ogres, etc. I've found a neat theory that they are all semi-related genetically. The odd thing was they also tied elves into the mix. I would be curious if anyone else had any info on the subject. I've been trying to get things for a while but barely anything really worked out.
From what I found the connections go like so:
Elves->Trolls->Ogres->Goblins->(insert random other here)
Maybe the connection lies within a gene...Like I said, it's just a minor theory currently but it does fit...I'm curious as to what you guys think. Agree/Disagree? Why/Why not?
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With regard to what you mentioned previously about ogres and trolls alike being merely demoted versions of ancient supernatural beings , do you think that the essentially negative characteristics that the Christians story-tellers endowed them with, stems from the fact that the entities that inspired them, were already regarded as malovelant beings to begin with? After all, the examples that you mentioned like the Jotunn and the Formorians, were seen as the arch-foes of the ancient pagan gods.
I wouldn't really call them malevolent, since the Gods were pretty harsh to humans too. They weren't viewed as friendly, but I think it really depends on the time period in question...I mean, even the Greek Titans were considered good at one point in time, and were actually the Gods worshipped by pre-Classical era Greeks that were changed into the "bad guys" as cultural attitudes changed.
Also, in the case of the Jotunn, they were no more the enemies of the Gods than the Gods themselves were. The Vanir and the Aesir weren't exactly the best of friends, and many cults and communities favored one faction of Gods over the other.
Ah...Always an interesting subject. I've been doing a bit of research for some time on the relation between trolls, ogres, etc. I've found a neat theory that they are all semi-related genetically. The odd thing was they also tied elves into the mix. I would be curious if anyone else had any info on the subject. I've been trying to get things for a while but barely anything really worked out.
From what I found the connections go like so:
Elves->Trolls->Ogres->Goblins->(insert random other here)
Maybe the connection lies within a gene...Like I said, it's just a minor theory currently but it does fit...I'm curious as to what you guys think. Agree/Disagree? Why/Why not?
Amaya, what the HELL are you talking about? Genetically related? Are you telling me you actually consider these things living beings that actually exist? Ugh...
The "creation" of ogres, trolls, giants, etc. can be traced in the folklore of various cultures. In fact, I think if you had read the thread you may have noticed that I've already stated that these beings are remnants of ancient God-like beings that existed in ancient spiritualities.
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Ah...Always an interesting subject. I've been doing a bit of research for some time on the relation between trolls, ogres, etc. I've found a neat theory that they are all semi-related genetically. The odd thing was they also tied elves into the mix. I would be curious if anyone else had any info on the subject. I've been trying to get things for a while but barely anything really worked out.
From what I found the connections go like so:
Elves->Trolls->Ogres->Goblins->(insert random other here)
Maybe the connection lies within a gene...Like I said, it's just a minor theory currently but it does fit...I'm curious as to what you guys think. Agree/Disagree? Why/Why not?
Amaya, what the HELL are you talking about? Genetically related? Are you telling me you actually consider these things living beings that actually exist? Ugh...
The "creation" of ogres, trolls, giants, etc. can be traced in the folklore of various cultures. In fact, I think if you had read the thread you may have noticed that I've already stated that these beings are remnants of ancient God-like beings that existed in ancient spiritualities.
Sorry, forgot to say fictional. Told you my brain was becoming mush with nothing to do for two days...:doh:
I know that. I was saying that the relation between them and why they are viewed as being similar could be as an archetype connecting all general mythologies. There are other examples. This is just one of them. That's another fun thing to research, parallels.
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Thank you so much for clarifying, Amaya...
I was starting to worry about you. *<:)
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I wouldn't really call them malevolent, since the Gods were pretty harsh to humans too. They weren't viewed as friendly, but I think it really depends on the time period in question...I mean, even the Greek Titans were considered good at one point in time, and were actually the Gods worshipped by pre-Classical era Greeks that were changed into the "bad guys" as cultural attitudes changed.
Also, in the case of the Jotunn, they were no more the enemies of the Gods than the Gods themselves were. The Vanir and the Aesir weren't exactly the best of friends, and many cults and communities favored one faction of Gods over the other.
Ahh, I see your point. I was basing my perception on the beings that I'd mentioned, especially with regard to the Jotunn, on modern retellings of the ancient myths that portrayed them as inherantly destructive beings hell bent on overthrowing the current cosmic order that the Gods sought to protect. However, what you just said raises an interesting question of its own. If entities like the Jotuun and the Titans were not particularly more oppressive and dangerous than the pagan gods they opposed, why is it that they have been reduced to grotesque caricatures of themselves, while their foes got off relatively easy? Contemporary versions of the Norse myths, especially those aimed at children, cast the gods of Asgard as noble defenders of humanity, while their foes are monstrous giants that seek to devour humanity.
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Thank you so much for clarifying, Amaya...
I was starting to worry about you. *<:)
My brain isn't that mushed. Give me a day and two intelligible conversations and I'll be back to normal.