Monstrous
The Darker Side => Demons, Demonology and The Devil => Topic started by: markml0528 on June 10, 2012, 11:42:52 PM
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I'm very confused. I'm 20 years old. About 1 or 2 years ago I became extremely uncertain about the existence of god, religion, and honestly anything supernatural that couldn't be explained scientifically or make even a small amount of sense. I've never witnessed anything supernatural as far as I'm aware. I'm not closed off to the existence of supernatural stuff, I'm open to the possibility of anything really. But I have not had a reason to believe.
I don't understand why so many people seem convinced ghosts, demons, and supernatural events are real, but yet most of the scientific community is extremely skeptical of it.
Why is it that with the widespread usage of smart phones and cameras that little to no CREDIBLE evidence has appeared? Everything (as far as I've researched) is questionable at best.
I don't want to do something crazy like use a ouija board and ask a demon or spirit to show itself, because if I'm wrong....well that wouldn't be very fun. I did attempt to record some evp's a few hours ago. Just asked the basic "is anyone there?" "What's your name?" Etc. I got zero responses, increasing my skepticism towards all of this stuff.
Being a scientific and logical minded person, I've noticed a pattern that I'm certain is very well known. Entities need energy. That appears to abide by the laws of physics. What if these "entities" are not supernatural beings, but natural beings that can somehow interact with our world in ways we have yet to understand?
I see that some people actually hunt demons on this site. I first came to this site about a year or two ago, and I thought most of you were crazy. But I've since changed my mind. I just don't know what is the truth. That's what I'm seeking.
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I just don't know what is the truth. That's what I'm seeking.
Seeking "the truth" is easy.
In the movie Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade, the character of Dr. Jones sums this up nicely:
Archaeology is the search for "fact"...not "truth". If it's truth you're interested in, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall. So forget any ideas you've got about lost cities, exotic travel, and digging up the world. We do not follow maps to buried treasure, and "X" never, ever, marks the spot. Seventy percent of all archaeology is done in the library. Research. Reading. We cannot afford to take mythology at face value.
"Fact" is something that exists or is present in reality, and can be demonstrated to be so. "Truth" is what a person believes. If you believe that something is true, then it is true.
In 1997, Michael Shermer, one of the founders of Skeptic Magazine, wrote about how the "Unexplained Is Not Inexplicable":
Many people are overconfident enough to think that if they cannot explain something, it must be inexplicable and therefore a true mystery of the paranormal. An amateur archeologist declares that because he cannot figure out how the pyramids were built, they must have been constructed by space aliens. Even those who are more reasonable at least think that if the experts cannot explain something, it must be inexplicable. Feats such as the bending of spoons, firewalking, or mental telepathy are often thought to be of a paranormal or mystical nature because most people cannot explain them. When they are explained, most people respond, "Yes, of course" or "That's obvious once you see it." Firewalking is a case in point. People speculate endlessly about supernatural powers over pain and heat, or mysterious brain chemicals that block the pain and prevent burning. The simple explanation is that the capacity of light and fluffy coals to contain heat is very low, and the conductivity of heat from the light and fluffy coals to your feet is very poor. As long as you don't stand around on the coals, you will not get burned. (Think of a cake in a 450°F oven. The air, the cake, and the pan are all at 450°F, but only the metal pan will burn your hand. It has a high heat capacity and high conductivity, while air and cake are light and fluffy and have a low heat capacity and low conductivity.) This is why magicians do not tell their secrets. Most of their tricks are extremely simple and knowing the secret takes the magic out of the trick.
There are many genuine unsolved mysteries in the universe and it is okay to say, "We do not yet know but someday perhaps we will." The problem is that most of us find it more comforting to have certainty, even if it is premature, than to live with unsolved or unexplained mysteries.
Entities need energy
What entities? What energy?
I first came to this site about a year or two ago, and I thought most of you were crazy
They are.
About 1 or 2 years ago I became extremely uncertain about the existence of god, religion, and honestly anything supernatural that couldn't be explained scientifically or make even a small amount of sense.
Shermer again: "I am often asked by believers why I abandoned Christianity and how I found meaning in the apparently meaningless universe presented by science. The implication is that the scientific world-view is an existentially depressing one. Without God, I am bluntly told, what's the point? If this is all there is, there is no use. To the contrary. For me quite the opposite is true. The conjuncture of losing my religion, finding science, and discovering glorious contingency was remarkably empowering and liberating. It gave me a sense of joy and freedom. Freedom to think for myself. Freedom to take responsibility for my own actions. Freedom to construct my own meanings and my own destinies. With the knowledge that this may be all there is, and that I can trigger my own cascading changes, I was free to live life to its fullest.
This is not to say that those who are religious cannot share in these freedoms. But for me, and not just for me, a world absent monsters, ghosts, demons, and gods unfetters the mind to soar to new heights, to think unthinkable thoughts, to imagine the unimaginable, to contemplate infinity and eternity knowing that no one is looking back. The universe takes on a whole new meaning when you know that your place in it was not foreordained, that it was not designed for us, indeed, that it was not designed at all. If we are nothing more than star stuff and bio mass, how special life becomes. If the tape were played again and again without the appearance of our species, how extraordinary becomes our existence, and, correspondingly, how cherished. To share in the sublimity of knowledge generated by other human minds, and perhaps even to make a tiny contribution toward that body of knowledge that will be passed down through the ages, part of the cumulative wisdom of a single species on a tiny planet orbiting an ordinary star on the remote edge of a not-so-unusual galaxy, itself a member of a cluster of galaxies millions of light years from nowhere, is sublime beyond words."
Poetry.
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If there was never an appearance of our species, would anyone really know how it'd be?
"Entities need energy. That appears to abide by the laws of physics. What if these "entities" are not supernatural beings, but natural beings that can somehow interact with our world in ways we have yet to understand? "
We're sort of like demons, monsters, ghosts and all the other plagues of rational men everywhere...we only exist because we believe we exist, there are only laws because we insist on certain behaviors as a collective, we know there's gravity because we experience it. most of this comes down to personal philosophy derived from personal experiences and where a person's faith lays through those experiences. How many things once thought magic were explained by science, i tend to agree with this ideal.
I prefer my world to have both magic and beauty in it...the tangible world and my spiritual soul allows me to enjoy the luxury of both, while learning from the misery of their flipsides. I see the splendor of the universe and love the intricate beauty of how it's all woven so finely that one missing element and none of it'll exist. There will always be things science can't explain, that's where dreams and imagination become an important aspect of our nature and allowed us to become the dominate creatures of this world.
Thinking by your feelings is the first step, if you've been off the radar so far...staying there is a good idea, sounds like you've got the hard part figured out. :)
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Thinking by your feelings is the first step
Your feelings are generated by your brain through certain chemicals. Thinking is also a process in your level of consciousness done by your brain. Therefor, you cannot 'think by your feelings'. Your brain is the only thing you can think,feel,sense with.
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Apparantly intuition and spontaneous inspirations are foreign ideals to you.
*let me elaborate...You sense or feel something odd, you think about what and why your feeling that, your brain processes it against already established knowledges, your body receives the message and then the body and mind react in unison to the situation and viola...a human feeling put into thought and then manifested accordingly by the person processing the sensation.
Should we get into the neurology of faith and belief?
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Jake:
In response to what you said about seeking the "truth" - You may have misinterpreted me. I was just seeking the truth to the answer of one question. "Do demons, ghosts, and other supernatural occurrences exist?". I was hoping for a yes or no, along with a short explanation. In response to your analogy about archaeology, I am interested in having one of the "30%" experiences. I've done my share of research. It's not like I have a decades worth or anything though. I've been interested my entire life. But only interested. I didn't put what I would consider "research" in until I was like 16, ever since then it's been a casual hobby to google anything i could think of that was supernatural related. it's picked up recently, as in the past month, where a significant portion of my free time (although, not all of it :P) is spent researching subjective experiences, possible scientific explanations, etc. I've also watched my fair share of ghost hunter documentaries, but the majority of my knowledge is from google searches. The end result is, I'm left very confused. With Ouija boards, on one hand, you have all the die hard skeptics claiming its all nonsense along with most if not everything else supernatural. And then on the other, you have a lot of people who are religious saying to NOT mess with them. Even two close friends of mine warned me and insisted that I not do it because they feared for my safety. and tthey seemed genuinely scared for my well being. If advice comes from a random stranger from the internet, there's a significant possibility they're doing it just to scare you or prank you. But when a close friend advises me the same thing, it holds a lot more weight to it.
I neither believe nor disbelieve in supernatural things. I'm open to anything. I just think that the majority of people have low standards for "proof". An older lady at my work was explaining to me that science can't explain the miracle of birth. I told her that it was actually pretty well documented on how people get pregnant, kindly of course. I then proceeded to explain the sperm and the egg, etc, and asked her if it made sense and she said it didn't and that it could only be god. We then drifted topics over to how the universe was created, she said it had to start somewhere. I then proposed, by that logic, where did god come from? She said he was always there. I told her, by that reasoning, why can't the universe have always been there? and she replied that it must have started somewhere but she couldn't understand that i was using her own argument against her. I meet people like this very often, and I'm as polite as possible because I hate offending people and their beliefs so I'm super cautious with my tone and how i word it as to not offend them. After our talk, she gave me a bible pamplet :P
I want the "facts", as you call them. I have found zero traces of any conclusive evidence that points to the existence of anything supernatural throughout all my research. Most of the evidence I've found is anecdotal evidence, which is a notoriously poor way of proposing evidence for the existence of something, unless of course you're the one experiencing the anecdotal evidence yourself. I, for one, have not. I've had a few questionable strange experiences, but it's possible i could have missed something that would explain it. I have never seen anything like a supernatural being as far as I'm aware. No moving shadows in the night, nothing pulling me out of my bed, no voices in my room, not anything really. If you have any evidence to show me, please point me in the right direction.
"Entities need energy" I said this based off of the widespread belief (as far as I can tell at least, feel free to disagree) that in order for a spirit or demon or (insert name here) to manifest, it must obtain energy from something. A small fraction of electricity could theortically be safely drawn from a person, that amount is about 80 watts of electricity per hour by a sleeping person, more if the person is active and awake. Some people have said they experienced nausea from a ghostly encounter. I propose two ideas (assuming demons/ghosts are real), the nausea is either from the shock and fear of what they encountered, or the entity needed a considerable amount of energy (enough for the person to get sick and nauseous) to manifest or throw objects or whatever it wanted to do. Im leaning towards the first one being true, because I'm leaning towards ghosts and demons not existing and are simply a figment of the imagination of the general public. Also, a friend of mine named Shea, she said she visited a house with some devil worshipping books as part of her community work with the Salvation Army, they were fixing up a house or something. The leader of their group came in the room and caught her taking a few peeks at the devil book, and he took it away from her and said its dangerous. So she went about her business that day and at the very end of the day, when she went out to her car in the parking lot she turned on her car, it cranked up just fine and everything. But after a few seconds she said the lights got really dim (but not dead) and she looked in the rear view mirror and she said she saw a thing with a black skeleton-like muscular dried out body with black pits of darkness for eyes looking at her. She said she bolted out of the car. Key point is, the "entity" in her situation, required the energy of the vehicle to manifest in a physical form to present itself to her. She thinks the demon followed her that whole day all the way to her car, all because she flipped through a few pages in a devil worshipping book. I, personally, don't know what she saw. She seemed genuine in what she described, and I see no incentive for her to fool me. She's not a prankster.
In response to you saying everybody was crazy. I couldn't tell if that was sarcasm, or you being serious. Do you think demons and ghosts and other supernatural entities exist? Examples such as a demon shadow flying across your ceiling at night, demonic whispers at night, cold hands grabbing you violently at night, etc. All the classic "haunted" stuff, do you believe that stuff is real or all fake?
Jordyn:
"Thinking by your feelings is the first step, if you've been off the radar so far...staying there is a good idea, sounds like you've got the hard part figured out"
I've been off the radar so far, what do you mean by this? Us speaking about the paranormal and supernatural, the first thing that comes to mind is that you're warning me to remain hidden from these things and generally mind my own business. Or do you mean something else entirely? An explanation would be appreciated. Also, what did you mean by saying I have the hard parts figured out? Please be detailed.
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"I've been off the radar so far, what do you mean by this? Us speaking about the paranormal and supernatural, the first thing that comes to mind is that you're warning me to remain hidden from these things and generally mind my own business. Or do you mean something else entirely? An explanation would be appreciated. Also, what did you mean by saying I have the hard parts figured out? Please be detailed. "
That's exactly what i'm saying, you're sort of going in reverse of most people, most seem to come across it and when it's a persistant pain in their life they come asking about it, you've got the upper hand looking into them before they look into you. It's not so much minding your own business, just not going the route of many others that come here in a panic because they're having night terrors, seeing things, friends and family being tortured and fail to accept that dabbling in the occult is what got them there and thinking that route will get them out.
you can believe it or not, i do and i've experienced what they can do to a person, a few still on this board know my story and a search of my threads from the beginning can show the change as i denied them and accepted a healthier interest for my over abundant energy/spiritual attraction. I'm all about knowledge, just not empowering what you seek, to seek you out.
the hard part is realizing they're constructs of our minds, your doubt about them i'm sure helps and keeping that doubt will assist if you're sincerely interested in finding out for yoursel then more power to you, just don't let them suck you in...there's something out there but no one knows what and it can affect people, even those who don't believe, there's always someone in your life that does.
"Speak of the devil and he'll appear", "be careful what you wish for" and a few other proverbs come to mind when people decide to pursue this curiousity.
you're suspicious, most people pursuing these interests aren't and that's why i stated you have the hard part figured out.
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Jordyn
Thank you for your response, it was very detailed and informative. A few things come to mind though.
I don't understand how I have some kind of advantage or "upper hand" simply because i have the opportunity to look into them, vs them looking into me first. I guess I'm asking, what difference would it make?
In one sentence you said "you can believe it or not, i do and i've experienced what they can do to a person", but in the next paragraph you said "the hard part is realizing they're constructs of our minds". This seems contradictory. Is it all in someone's mind? Is it merely the psychological effect that an eerie environment has on people? (cemeteries, haunted houses, etc.)
Also, how would my doubt benefit me? If I had to guess, I would say it keeps me from jumping to conclusions and assuming that literally every sound I heard at night simply HAD to be of demonic origins. But that's required in every aspect of science. You look at all the logical and more likely possibilities, than resorting to "oh it HAD to be demons". For me, I would have to witness something pretty compelling to become a believer. I've already said the examples, stuff like seeing a definitive black shadow with red eyes moving across the ceiling would be convincing. So would a black skeletal figure with red eyes that was breathing fire out its nose, that would also be hard to "explain away".
The proverbs you referenced, could it be that simply talking about it just puts you on edge and makes you jumpy and start seeing things in the corner of your eye?
I will go look at some of your first few topics and posts. EDIT: Went through about the first 10 pages of your posts, you seemed to believe that all this stuff was real back then. You speak about certain archetypes, and spells you performed, etc.
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In one sentence you said "you can believe it or not, i do and i've experienced what they can do to a person", but in the next paragraph you said "the hard part is realizing they're constructs of our minds". This seems contradictory. Is it all in someone's mind? Is it merely the psychological effect that an eerie environment has on people? (cemeteries, haunted houses, etc.)
I've had many discussions about eregores and such archetypes. It goes back to the source of the human mind, it's id power that discovered fire in caves, had more time to dream and dreamt of gods. The human mind is capable of producing and even influencing events based on it's visualisation power, generates an energy that can sync with like energies, in it's simpliest description, pure thought manifested by human desire.
We hear a bump in the night, our mind generates energy figuring it out, without an obvious answer the mind takes over, a similiar energy latches on, reaches in through the subconscious mind and the symbiotic relationship of energy begans. How long have humans been interacting with the natural world and what's the first thing they scriblled on cave walls? So many dreams, thoughts, cultures, myths, stories and evolution of the mind and knowledge to have shaped energies that go back to knocking three times on wood(to wake the wood spirits for their assistance)to the now growing technomages, manipulating technology based energy to have it do things they want it to...it gets a little too sifi for my thoughts at this point, but more occult based sites have a few that talk about it, gremlins would be their demons.
it benefits you because it shows you don't have a lot of energies around you, if the energy theory is acurate then the more chaos you have to your energy, the more chaos is attracted to you, you have dark thoughts, dark things are attracted, you have happy thoughts...well, that's my personal life and why i do go with the energy flow idea, I'm just tuned into a more from the earth based energy, connected with a greater cosmic energy that's interwoven through all living things. Spirits are basically the same, just not confined to flesh and the physical world...but now we're getting into afterlife discussions and that's a whole different debate, however it also comes down to some cosmic energy ebb and flow.
In one sentence you said "you can believe it or not, i do and i've experienced what they can do to a person", but in the next paragraph you said "the hard part is realizing they're constructs of our minds". This seems contradictory. Is it all in someone's mind? Is it merely the psychological effect that an eerie environment has on people? (cemeteries, haunted houses, etc.)
that would depend on the mind perceiving it, how it processes it and what state it was in, i no longer see such things so i go with mind over matter.
I will go look at some of your first few topics and posts. EDIT: Went through about the first 10 pages of your posts, you seemed to believe that all this stuff was real back then. You speak about certain archetypes, and spells you performed, etc.
Just using my mind to manifest and manipulate energies that were present in my life whether from nature, spiritual that formed according to my expectation, or...lord only knows what energies i eventually was dealing with, however i shifted my energy needs and discovered more beneficial energies to exist with. I don't not believe in demons, devils and other evils in the night, i just acknowledge what they are and realized my human mind by all accounts is more powerful than most people want to believe, we literally take other energies and manifest them, some have been manifested thousands of years before any of out were born and are free of any master, that's where the "wicked ones" come from, those ancient thoughts free from human constructs and have become their own, intelligent entities. Ghosts are human energies trapped in the physical world without a body to interact with it, etc...it can go on and on down to the energy a simple rock on a river shore can have.
i just don't like telling people what to believe, in the end it really has no affect on my life and for any claims some may make, nothing can affect my energy, unless I let it. The human mind has always been my favorite feature of humanity though, so little is still known about it.
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Do you agree with the statement that everything in the universe has a logical and scientific explanation to it? It's a statement that I believe, many scientists believe, and even more world renowned people such as Carl Sagan believe.
I do not require "proof" to believe something. I require credible evidence to decide whether I want to believe a claim someone makes. It is what any sane, rational minded person would want. It is how science works, and it has benefited mankind greatly. No one can assert that they have reliable evidence that prayers, incantations, or spells actually work. That is not to say that they do not work, it is just to say that no one has presented a credible explanation for how they could possibly work. With science on the other hand, there are many medicines that can be easily explained and are well documented in how they help treat a person's illness. With all of that said (and I hope you don't take offense to this, as I mean no offense), I do not believe your ideas about how the human mind can manifest intelligent energies, or that the subconscious mind can create some symbiotic relationship with another energy somehow, etc. You believe it to be real, but that is through purely subjective experiences. It seems my only alternative is to experience this stuff subjectively, because every objective approach I have researched comes up VERY short handed with just questionable evidence.
How can I go about searching whether or not the supernatural is actually real?
It seems every time I ask the above question, or read about anyone else asking the above question, there is an overwhelming amount of people who say "zOMG, don't do it, it opens a portal to hell and demons follow you....." or something of that nature. I'm quite confident it's all fake. All credible scientists I've researched say that the supernatural is all pseudoscience, people trying to make a quick buck off of a ghost tour in new orleans, a reality tv show on discovery channel, or a ghost book they're writing about. Harry Houdini himself would frequently debunk psychics and mediums as frauds throughout his career. He never claimed to have supernatural powers, and claimed that anyone who claimed to have them was doing nothing more than a cheap parlor trick. Not all scientists are egotistical jerks, who are afraid to say "hmm, maybe I was wrong and ghosts and spirits do exist...".
I think people should have an open mind, raise their standards on what they choose to believe in, and never be too proud to say "maybe i was wrong".
My position, to clarify, I don't know if supernatural stuff is real. I'm leaning pretty strongly towards "It's almost definitely not real, but chance remains". I've never experienced it myself. If it is real, I would like to know how to find it.
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"Do you agree with the statement that everything in the universe has a logical and scientific explanation to it? It's a statement that I believe, many scientists believe, and even more world renowned people such as Carl Sagan believe. "
no, i don't...a new credit system for cashiers that's supposed to make our job easier isn't logical and can't be explained how it helps the cashier, i can see how it'd help the company figure who's spending what on fuel versus other conveniences a convenience store offers, but it hasn't made our job easier, just complicates it...so if something as simple as a credit card system defies explanaition, why assume science has all the answers? An astrophysist couldn't explain it either, but his speciality isn't consumer business.
i suppose quantum physics would be the best science to explain the unexplainable, but look at how little is known about that...even the dark matter they have proof of defies reason or rational as to how it exactly effects the universe or where it even comes from. I was just reading an article that they now believe neanderthals actually created art and cultured beauty before humans, which would suggest they had culture before modern humans. If people really want to dabble with demons to see "proof" they deserve what happens to them, it's different then a person that unwittingly stumbles into it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/jun/14/neanderthals-first-create-cave-paintings (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/jun/14/neanderthals-first-create-cave-paintings)
to find something that feels supernatural, go sit outside in a flower garden just as dusk settles, the flowers take on a spectacular hue, their scents are heavy in the air and the butterflies and bees leave a magical beauty that no spell, ritual or rite could duplicate. You get the birds fluttering and twittering eating their full before settling down into the trees leaving the air to bats. Don't get me going on the sun rising from behind the mountains with amazing clouds of pink, silver and purple or the magnificence of having a drink by a lake in the middle of the night in late august as a spontaneous meteor shower bursts across the sky.
These are experiences that bring me closer to the earth, and what i worship as God, no spirits required but mine.
the supernatural depends on a person's perception, if you're looking for tv style supernatural experiences, you won't find them, those things can get pretty scary and often exagerated by frightened people who experience it, but their scares are confined to our fears and expectations.
that's the problem with belief, it comes down to a person's faith because when you seek it the most, is when it's the hardest to find. I'm more interested in why some people experience it as soon as they open the door to their spirit and others are incapable of experiencing it no matter how many they open. *shrugs That's something science can explain and are slowly opening up to examine in the human brain, in my opinion that's utlimately the key into unlocking the secrets of what you're seeking.
My experiences led me to magick, it was the only realm at that time that offered explanations as to what i was experiencing, why and the occult was my way at telling the roman church i was subjected to after my parents divorced to feck off. I still get stroppy about things, but my spirituality is something i closely guard now, whatever it is, it's too precious to waste on foreign spiritual energies that seek to feed off mine and personally does better attuned with the earth, where we all came from no matter which path you follow...science or magic. We're creatures of the earth, made intelligence in the flesh and designated as having dominion over the physical world with the ability to walk in the weird.
..If you believe, no wonder some of those things you're looking to validate faith hate us, seek to exploit us and others who desire to help us grow into better humans, proof is everywhere and in every culture it just depends on what you're looking for proof of and why. I can only offer my experiences because i've already resolved them and accepted what makes sense from my understandings of the world, known and unknown. Science is slowly answering some of my questions but also opening up the potential that it's not all just a spot in the brain that has certain chemicals stimulated by a set environment...sort of like the accoustacal magic they found out about stonehedge.
http://www.livescience.com/18525-sound-illusion-stonehenge.html (http://www.livescience.com/18525-sound-illusion-stonehenge.html)
http://soundsofstonehenge.wordpress.com/ (http://soundsofstonehenge.wordpress.com/)
the human mind has always created magic to describe their experiences, now science is explaining why stonhedge is such a magical place. With no mind there's nothing.
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Your reasons for disagreeing with me don't seem to make sense, to me at least. You seem to make the conclusion that whatever makes your job easier = logical. But, whatever makes the company more efficient, is not logical. Logic to you is simply a perspective then? I do not mean to be rude, but that is the conclusion I came to and I detailed my reasoning. The new credit system does not defy explanation, you already explained it yourself, that it allows the company to view its expenses and income more efficiently and easily. I personally believe that science does have all the answers, because that is what history has shown us time and time again. It is just a matter of time. There is a difference between currently unexplainable, and flat out unexplainable. Numerous things in history were flat out unexplainable....at that time. Lots of those things turned out to be explainable, some of them still remain. The more mankind learns, the more questions will be asked, the cycle will possibly repeat itself forever. Who knows?
I do not know much about dark matter, I know they have a good chunk of evidence to support its existence. Mainly through its gravitational effects on how they are able to structure galaxies in the shapes they are. It's something like 75 or so percent of the matter in the universe, don't quote me on that. It's just what I remember from discovery channel. It may defy reason or rational on how it affects the universe, but given enough time, we will find the answers. We always have.
I actually just attempted to use a ouija board a few minutes ago, alone in my room. Had my emf detector on hand. No spikes in baseline emf. No feelings of a presence, no voices, shadows, no responses on the board. I was the only one touching it, and I felt no force acting upon my hand, therefore my hand did not move. I wasn't holding it forcibly, my two fingers were gently resting on the planchette. "Is anyone there?" "If anyone is there, show yourself, anyone" "Tap on the door, or the wall, show yourself in the mirror". A few more, but still no results. If demons are real, I would assume it would only make sense that God is real as well, and in that case...I totally screwed up and got it all MAJORLY wrong. What am I to believe based off of evidence though? Am I supposed to blindly believe there is a God? Choosing to blindly believe in anything does not sit well with me.
When you say " If people really want to dabble with demons to see "proof" they deserve what happens to them, it's different then a person that unwittingly stumbles into it.", does that mean that you do believe biblical depictions of demons are real? Have you ever seen one? Am I really dabbling in something that I should not? Am I putting myself in grave danger by seeking them out, even from a highly skeptical point of view?
"Ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise" A highly subjective quote, as it varies significantly with each person. Some people are more comfortable being ignorant to the truth. Some people are more comfortable knowing the truth. I am more comfortable knowing the truth, than continuing to live in an illusion.
Moloch and Muerte, is there anyway I could possibly speak with them about this? They seem to be among the most knowledgeable on this subject.
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I actually just attempted to use a ouija board a few minutes ago, alone in my room. Had my emf detector on hand. No spikes in baseline emf. No feelings of a presence, no voices, shadows, no responses on the board. I was the only one touching it, and I felt no force acting upon my hand, therefore my hand did not move.
its like betting on very low stats, hoping to get the paranormal event jump into ur lap or something. why dont u try with haunted places? take all the gear urself and find a place where u know people are complaining about that sort of misfortune.
Please, make sure all ur equipment is working and try to look at the things from a different angle, or better said, more of them. Depends on u on how ur gonna take this.
Usually, when events happen, it records the magnetic change. It is up to the "scientist" or whomever takes this unnecessary test, how they are gonna explain it. And for as long as u dont see for urself, after u made sure that all search parameters are in line ;)
ps: years ago i did the test myself, using a very simple technique involving radio frequency and tape recorder. We got an answer after the third question. Sort of.... i wish i never heard that voice.... so we burned the tape cause we got spooked, and voila, no evidence.
also, i had someone from my family do the orthodox magick on us....
i burned it and threw in the canal...
again, no evidence that that bones and fur did any harm to my life
and yet it did ;)
so, sure, i agree that most of the stuff we see or hear are bogus, but there are some paterns that drow lines from way way back and they are not here for without a good reason.
just a rant...
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Using a Ouija board is like betting on very low stats? Why is it that there are numerous stories on the internet of people using the ouija board and encountering supernatural entities? I've tried in my room several times, both alone and with another person. Based off of what I've read on the internet, it doesn't take much to piss these spirits/entities/ghosts/demons off. It doesn't seem to take much to get their attention.
I have been looking at this from different perspectives. I try to exhaust all logical explanations as best I can.
I have an emf detector, which I've used on my ouija sessions. There are no spikes in electrical activity compared to the background emf readings.
Please tell me about this technique, I don't quite understand what you mean. You said it involved radio frequency and a tape recorder. I'm interested in attempting this. Why did you burn the tape? Why would you destroy the only evidence you have? It seems as if everybody does that. Scientists are looking for evidence, and everytime somebody has "conclusive" evidence, they choose to conveniently destroy it.
What is orthodox magic? Explain this method, I would like to try it.
Lastly, does anyone possess ANY evidence for the existence of anything supernatural?
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so, if you can't find proof to satisfy yourself, go onto something that will work for you...you're the one beating the board up over not believing with people who already believe, what are you hoping for, everyone to say your right there's nothing there, you win?
some people just weren't meant for the spiritual world, i guess you're one of them...find your answers how others did, research books, legends and the history not try to make believers idiots that don't make sense because you fail to find the belief you're seeking and accept the fact that for some people, it's a void they'll never touch, maybe you're just more sane and scientific and such atheist ideals scare them away.
it's fruitless to argue with someone who expects the spirit to manifest in the material and is incapable of experiencing it, but that's your issue, not mine.
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I think that's a little harsh. Ultimately, he is asking for the moon, but I think he has been given a rougher ride in response than, say, I would receive, simply because he is newer here than I.
I say asking for the moon, because he is asking "believers" in demons to validate their belief, which is much Like asking Christians or Muslims to validate their belief in God.
Some posts seem to have been removed, but I'm sure at one point someone told him that the reason he had received no results from a ouija board were because he "lacked faith..."
That's a very religious - and meaningless - response. "Faith" is simply a non-rational belief in a proposition, contrary to the sum of the evidence for that belief. The earth does not orbit the sun because we have faith that it does so. It will not stop orbiting the sun if we all lose faith in it doing so.
Many people here believe that demons are real. Some claim to have control over them. I don't think that it is unreasonable for him to ask these learnèd folk for assistance. I don't think it is unreasonable for him to become a tad frustrated when all he receives in reply is empty rhetoric and mystical-sounding woo.
To markml, I would say: My goal is to get people to think more deeply about what they believe without threat or disrespect. The target audience is not exactly on "our side," and so I have to walk a very fine line. It isn't easy. Carl Sagan wrote:
"Have I ever heard a skeptic wax superior and contemptuous? Certainly. I've even sometimes heard, to my retrospective dismay, that unpleasant tone in my own voice. There are human imperfections on both sides of this issue. Even when it's applied sensitively, scientific skepticism may come across as arrogant, dogmatic, heartless, and dismissive of the feelings and deeply held beliefs of others..."
Guilty, too, m'lud.
I at least try to throw in a joke or something when it starts to look as though I'm slaughtering a sacred cow too many.
Here's a couple to be going on with:
Q: How many skeptics does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Well, yes, the room went dark shortly AFTER the bulb burned out but that doesn’t mean it CAUSED the room to go dark. There could’ve been any number of events occurring at about the same time, any one of which could’ve been the trigger for the room darkening. You're committing a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. You should just leave it as is and see if the darkness clears itself up. If not, then you should consult a qualified darkness professional and see if they can determine the cause. The last thing you want to do is go messing around with some crazy lightbulb-changing home remedy. I mean, come on! Where did you read about that anyway, the internet?
Q: How many skeptics does it take to change a light bulb?
A: 11- One to change the lighbulb and ten to criticize the inaccurate reporting of it.
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I think that's a little harsh. Ultimately, he is asking for the moon, but I think he has been given a rougher ride in response than, say, I would receive, simply because he is newer here than I.
If it's not going to work for him, it won't...i don't know why. Rather than insisting on proof of belief and expecting grand scale fireworks, why not spend his "i just don't understand" into researching why he has difficulties and others don't. I've come up with most of my theories trying to figure out why i've always been surrounded by the supernatural, why my friend didn't experience anything until her brother killed himself and then there are those like my sister who've never experienced anything.
Is it a formation of the mind, an over abundance of chemicals, and overactive synapse firing? I could go on...i don't know why he can't contact the supernatural, and i'm done trying to explain it in terms a non believer could understand, and don't have the intitiative to translate it into scientific jargon to try to simplify it anymore than i already have...there are better books and authors than what my personal experiences are obviously capable of offering him and asking people repeatedly that can't answer his question to his satisfaction.
It's energy, you can't see it but if you stick a knife in the socket you sure do experience it, i don't care about them anymore and my help obviously isn't helping...maybe he's tryinng with plastic knives?
now that was harsh...:P
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I think that's a little harsh. Ultimately, he is asking for the moon, but I think he has been given a rougher ride in response than, say, I would receive, simply because he is newer here than I.
If it's not going to work for him, it won't...i don't know why. Rather than insisting on proof of belief and expecting grand scale fireworks, why not spend his "i just don't understand" into researching why he has difficulties and others don't. I've come up with most of my theories trying to figure out why i've always been surrounded by the supernatural, why my friend didn't experience anything until her brother killed himself and then there are those like my sister who've never experienced anything.
Is it a formation of the mind, an over abundance of chemicals, and overactive synapse firing? I could go on...i don't know why he can't contact the supernatural, and i'm done trying to explain it in terms a non believer could understand, and don't have the intitiative to translate it into scientific jargon to try to simplify it anymore than i already have...there are better books and authors than what my personal experiences are obviously capable of offering him and asking people repeatedly that can't answer his question to his satisfaction.
It's energy, you can't see it but if you stick a knife in the socket you sure do experience it, i don't care about them anymore and my help obviously isn't helping...maybe he's tryinng with plastic knives?
now that was harsh...:P
Why are you implying that there is something wrong with him and that is why he cannot accept the supernatural?
How can you know that it isn't just perception and illusions that make you think the supernatural is real? What if these 'abundance of chemicals, and overactive synapse firing' is making you believe it is real?
You cannot translate it into 'scientific jargon' because it wouldn't sound right. The supernatural and science cannot go hand in hand. But from what I know, science can be a little more trusting than the supernatural, since the latter is only based on testimonies of individuals who might have had their perception altered as well.
And don't use the 'then why is everyone reporting similar supernatural experiences?'. What's more likely for someone who's watched a horror movie about ghosts to report when he heard the door slam? 1. It was a ghost ; 2. It was a Yeti.
You cannot blame 'energy' for anything, but you still do it because it is the one major term that has a 'dark aura' around it, meaning that a part of it doesn't emit any electromagnetic radiation so people could study it better.
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I think that's a little harsh. Ultimately, he is asking for the moon, but I think he has been given a rougher ride in response than, say, I would receive, simply because he is newer here than I.
If it's not going to work for him, it won't...i don't know why. Rather than insisting on proof of belief and expecting grand scale fireworks, why not spend his "i just don't understand" into researching why he has difficulties and others don't. I've come up with most of my theories trying to figure out why i've always been surrounded by the supernatural, why my friend didn't experience anything until her brother killed himself and then there are those like my sister who've never experienced anything.
Is it a formation of the mind, an over abundance of chemicals, and overactive synapse firing? I could go on...i don't know why he can't contact the supernatural, and i'm done trying to explain it in terms a non believer could understand, and don't have the intitiative to translate it into scientific jargon to try to simplify it anymore than i already have...there are better books and authors than what my personal experiences are obviously capable of offering him and asking people repeatedly that can't answer his question to his satisfaction.
It's energy, you can't see it but if you stick a knife in the socket you sure do experience it, i don't care about them anymore and my help obviously isn't helping...maybe he's tryinng with plastic knives?
now that was harsh...:P
Why are you implying that there is something wrong with him and that is why he cannot accept the supernatural?
How can you know that it isn't just perception and illusions that make you think the supernatural is real? What if these 'abundance of chemicals, and overactive synapse firing' is making you believe it is real?
You cannot translate it into 'scientific jargon' because it wouldn't sound right. The supernatural and science cannot go hand in hand. But from what I know, science can be a little more trusting than the supernatural, since the latter is only based on testimonies of individuals who might have had their perception altered as well.
And don't use the 'then why is everyone reporting similar supernatural experiences?'. What's more likely for someone who's watched a horror movie about ghosts to report when he heard the door slam? 1. It was a ghost ; 2. It was a Yeti.
You cannot blame 'energy' for anything, but you still do it because it is the one major term that has a 'dark aura' around it, meaning that a part of it doesn't emit any electromagnetic radiation so people could study it better.
i didn't say there was anything wrong with him, quite the contrary i suggested he's better off, did you read anyting i've posted but the last one?
If it's a construct of my brain, then there is nothing, i'll find that out when i die, science will be able to successfully explain it and he'll still be running around pestering people because he's not "seeing it." To put it more clearly, he's trying to get scientific proof for something that's NOT scientific from people who don't pursue science...so who's being facitious in this debate?
Ultimately it comes down to a brain's perception deciphering an unknown experience to the best of it's ability, and if you've read any other posts besides the one Jake chose to point out, you'd know what i've said, how often i've said it and the many places i've said it...links to other authors and groups that pursue what he's looking for, choosing to not beat my head against a wall over something that simply no longer applies to my life, it's in his hands and he's the one having issues getting the proof he wants...why is it my bad for pointing out, some people experience it, some people don't and i don't know why?!?
I hear a door slam, i ask who's up...having another adult and two children in the household would suggest it's one of them and not something supernatural, again...a person's perception of their environment. I watch horror movies like they're candy for a kid, but i see someone acting weird i don't assume they're possessed by a demon, i hope they're not on bath salts.
I find my supernatural sitting in a flower garden at dusk watching their colors start to glow and scents get heavier...it's not my fault if people are looking for fireworks, i'm not required to give them a punk to help them along, i extinguished mine willingly a long time ago and it's up to that person to find their proof or accept it's not there.
so again, why am i the villian for shrugging my shoulders because he can't exdperience what others do, you're the expert instead of picking apart those who gave up trying to explain it, why don't you offer him help or do you have nothing else to offer but jumping on a bandwagon?
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My post was meant to sound so harsh not because I like to debate like this, neither because I found any of your posts except the last one offending. I'm sorry if I got it wrong, but from what I've read, you made it sound like there's something wrong with him because he has 'difficulties' witnessing supernatural events.
In the end, it seems that it was all just a misunderstanding. My apologies.
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I just think the "believers" on this site would benefit a lot from two things.
1. A skeptical mindset
2. A better understanding of science
Standards for proof seem to be pretty low for "believers". There is the "But I saw it with my own eyes!", for some reason "believers" will assume it's more likely that it was the devil, a ghost, a spirit, or whatever....rather than the more likely spontaneous hallucination, just as an example. Why is it that something that has little to no evidence for its existence (the devil, ghosts, spirits, god) is more likely than something that has been observed and has quite a bit of evidence behind it (spontaneous hallucinations) ? Sounds like flawed reasoning to me.
I've given "believers" the benefit of the doubt numerous times. I still try to use my ouija board alone, in the dark, with candles, and nothing works. I'm going to be attempting a spell to scry a demon in the mirror when I have time. I'm also going to be going to a haunted location near my town. A graveyard that has had sightings for decades. And I will use the ouija board there. I'll be bringing a knife or something though, because this graveyard is about a mile or two from civilization deep in the woods and the place really creeps me out lol.
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Same thing could be applied to "non-believers" (notice the quote-unquote i used again? xD)
I cant respect someones wish to make everything someone else went through as least as meaningful as they want. They never had it, they prolly never will (for the reasons known only to God, yes, the God most of you dont believe exists) experience anything meaningful. The only reason they wont, is their own heart and mind. You dont have to believe it its a free world. But showing utter disrespect towards other peoples beliefs, stomping on it and spitting on it (oh sure, words spit too) like everyone else but those of reason is not worth the time, well personally i think its all bull.
No, you wont find your precious empirical evidence here, and if you ever thought you will, then this is not a place for thee.
There are many sites that will really appreciate certain set of logic, but Monstrous is a place where people who find themselves different from that set of logic can meet their kind and discuss their questions without fear of being treated as instant lunatics.
So, for the sake of well being and decent debating, lets stop pretending we are the smartest and all knowing and accept that not all we know is as we think it is. Lower that ego screaming deep down in ya, and try to be open for this world.
And make this place a warm place to be, not a frigin close minded redneck bar....
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Same thing could be applied to "non-believers" (notice the quote-unquote i used again? xD)
I cant respect someones wish to make everything someone else went through as least as meaningful as they want. They never had it, they prolly never will (for the reasons known only to God, yes, the God most of you dont believe exists) experience anything meaningful. The only reason they wont, is their own heart and mind. You dont have to believe it its a free world. But showing utter disrespect towards other peoples beliefs, stomping on it and spitting on it (oh sure, words spit too) like everyone else but those of reason is not worth the time, well personally i think its all bull.
No, you wont find your precious empirical evidence here, and if you ever thought you will, then this is not a place for thee.
There are many sites that will really appreciate certain set of logic, but Monstrous is a place where people who find themselves different from that set of logic can meet their kind and discuss their questions without fear of being treated as instant lunatics.
So, for the sake of well being and decent debating, lets stop pretending we are the smartest and all knowing and accept that not all we know i as we think it is. Lower that ego screaming deep down in ya, and try to be open fr this world.
What else would you prefer that I call people that believe in the supernatural? Being called non believer doesn't offend me at all.
How am I showing any disrespect towards you or anyone else? You made a incredible claim stating that supernatural stuff is real, I did the reasonable thing and asked for evidence. You came up empty handed, other than your own eyewitness testimonial.
"Monstrous is a place where people who find themselves different from that set of logic can meet their kind" What you're saying is that Monstrous is a place for people who disregard logical scientific explanations to things and resort to the "more likely" scenario in which it was a demon, the devil, a ghost, a spirit, etc. We're not treating you like lunatics. The only thing I've said about people who believe unquestionably that demons, ghosts, spirits, etc are real is that they lack two things. A skeptical mind set and a sufficient understanding of science. I think anyone who believes in that stuff lacks both. Everyone who has ever believed in that stuff in my experience has had no evidence other than eyewitness testimonial. And for me, that is nowhere near enough to make me a believer.
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You miss a point. Believing is not about evidence.
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Okay?
that didn't answer my post at all
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I just think the "believers" on this site would benefit a lot from two things.
1. A skeptical mindset
2. A better understanding of science
Standards for proof seem to be pretty low for "believers". There is the "But I saw it with my own eyes!", for some reason "believers" will assume it's more likely that it was the devil, a ghost, a spirit, or whatever....rather than the more likely spontaneous hallucination, just as an example. Why is it that something that has little to no evidence for its existence (the devil, ghosts, spirits, god) is more likely than something that has been observed and has quite a bit of evidence behind it (spontaneous hallucinations) ? Sounds like flawed reasoning to me.
I've given "believers" the benefit of the doubt numerous times. I still try to use my ouija board alone, in the dark, with candles, and nothing works. I'm going to be attempting a spell to scry a demon in the mirror when I have time. I'm also going to be going to a haunted location near my town. A graveyard that has had sightings for decades. And I will use the ouija board there. I'll be bringing a knife or something though, because this graveyard is about a mile or two from civilization deep in the woods and the place really creeps me out lol.
My post was meant to sound so harsh not because I like to debate like this, neither because I found any of your posts except the last one offending. I'm sorry if I got it wrong, but from what I've read, you made it sound like there's something wrong with him because he has 'difficulties' witnessing supernatural events.
In the end, it seems that it was all just a misunderstanding. My apologies.
i find the issue with someone who is not finding the proof he wants and still on the fence, wanting to believe but won't without proof while belittling those who do believe and already have had their own reasons for doing so.
I just think the "believers" on this site would benefit a lot from two things.
1. A skeptical mindset
2. A better understanding of science
Standards for proof seem to be pretty low for "believers". There is the "But I saw it with my own eyes!", for some reason "believers" will assume it's more likely that it was the devil, a ghost, a spirit, or whatever....rather than the more likely spontaneous hallucination, just as an example. Why is it that something that has little to no evidence for its existence (the devil, ghosts, spirits, god) is more likely than something that has been observed and has quite a bit of evidence behind it (spontaneous hallucinations) ? Sounds like flawed reasoning to me.
I've given "believers" the benefit of the doubt numerous times. I still try to use my ouija board alone, in the dark, with candles, and nothing works. I'm going to be attempting a spell to scry a demon in the mirror when I have time. I'm also going to be going to a haunted location near my town. A graveyard that has had sightings for decades. And I will use the ouija board there. I'll be bringing a knife or something though, because this graveyard is about a mile or two from civilization deep in the woods and the place really creeps me out lol.
In one paragraph he doesn't mind being a nonbeliever, in another those who do believe are incapable of doubting their senses or understanding science and then he's going out in the woods with a quija board and knife to find proof of something he doesn't believe in because it's "creepy", giving us the benefit of the doubt?
so who's being illogical in this whole endeavor?
"How am I showing any disrespect towards you or anyone else?"
I just think the "believers" on this site would benefit a lot from two things.
1. A skeptical mindset
2. A better understanding of science
Monstrous is a place where people who find themselves different from that set of logic can meet their kind" What you're saying is that Monstrous is a place for people who disregard logical scientific explanations to things and resort to the "more likely" scenario in which it was a demon, the devil, a ghost, a spirit, etc.
I'm open to anything. I just think that the majority of people have low standards for "proof".
Also, how would my doubt benefit me? If I had to guess, I would say it keeps me from jumping to conclusions and assuming that literally every sound I heard at night simply HAD to be of demonic origins.
The proverbs you referenced, could it be that simply talking about it just puts you on edge and makes you jumpy and start seeing things in the corner of your eye?
I do not require "proof" to believe something. I require credible evidence to decide whether I want to believe a claim someone makes. It is what any sane, rational minded person would want
I think people should have an open mind, raise their standards on what they choose to believe in, and never be too proud to say "maybe i was wrong".
You seem to make the conclusion that whatever makes your job easier = logical. But, whatever makes the company more efficient, is not logical. Logic to you is simply a perspective then? I do not mean to be rude, but that is the conclusion I came to and I detailed my reasoning.
If demons are real, I would assume it would only make sense that God is real as well, and in that case...I totally screwed up and got it all MAJORLY wrong. What am I to believe based off of evidence though? Am I supposed to blindly believe there is a God? Choosing to blindly believe in anything does not sit well with me.
"Ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise" A highly subjective quote, as it varies significantly with each person. Some people are more comfortable being ignorant to the truth. Some people are more comfortable knowing the truth. I am more comfortable knowing the truth, than continuing to live in an illusion.
And for me, that is nowhere near enough to make me a believer.
I've given "believers" the benefit of the doubt numerous times. I still try to use my ouija board alone, in the dark, with candles, and nothing works. I'm going to be attempting a spell to scry a demon in the mirror when I have time. I'm also going to be going to a haunted location near my town. A graveyard that has had sightings for decades. And I will use the ouija board there. I'll be bringing a knife or something though, because this graveyard is about a mile or two from civilization deep in the woods and the place really creeps me out lol.
i just got off work an hour ago and relaxing at home with my daughter watching a muppet movie on cable i pay for, you're sneaking around woodsy urban graveyards with a knife and quija board looking for something you don't believe in...
I'm very confused.
I can whole heartedly agree, take no offense at this statement and leaving the argument on that note.
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My post was meant to sound so harsh not because I like to debate like this, neither because I found any of your posts except the last one offending. I'm sorry if I got it wrong, but from what I've read, you made it sound like there's something wrong with him because he has 'difficulties' witnessing supernatural events.
In the end, it seems that it was all just a misunderstanding. My apologies.
I think we agree on a whole lot more than i think it would initially seem, we both respect the power of the human brain and acknowledge it's importance in all matters human.
Honestly, i understand the impracticality of my beliefs but it works for me and in the realm of supernatural belief, it's pretty rational, but it's just my theory derived from personal experiences, some with close friends and in a constant process of elaborate thought, leading into more studies of psychology and neuroscience.
Just because someone hasn't experienced what i have doesn't make anything wrong with them, just not like me...and i like it that way. I'm becoming skeptical about his sincerity, i don't mind people who disagree with my theories and offer counter points as to why, without insulting me for the fact that i experience things they don't, i know those people are out there, but even they admit no one knows the answer to that question. I would like science to offer a provable fact and not rational theories as to how and why it happens, then i'd know what makes the difference between how some minds process unknown sensations and what causes altered perceptions of those experiences, but until psychology supercedes established knowledge and proves scientifically how the mind influences fact and behavior, we're left with "ghosts and demons".
They're just now unraveling why some people kill and others don't, i'm not holding my breath for an answer any time soon. ;)
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I think that's a little harsh. Ultimately, he is asking for the moon, but I think he has been given a rougher ride in response than, say, I would receive, simply because he is newer here than I.
I say asking for the moon, because he is asking "believers" in demons to validate their belief, which is much Like asking Christians or Muslims to validate their belief in God.
Some posts seem to have been removed, but I'm sure at one point someone told him that the reason he had received no results from a ouija board were because he "lacked faith..."
That's a very religious - and meaningless - response. "Faith" is simply a non-rational belief in a proposition, contrary to the sum of the evidence for that belief. The earth does not orbit the sun because we have faith that it does so. It will not stop orbiting the sun if we all lose faith in it doing so.
Many people here believe that demons are real. Some claim to have control over them. I don't think that it is unreasonable for him to ask these learnèd folk for assistance. I don't think it is unreasonable for him to become a tad frustrated when all he receives in reply is empty rhetoric and mystical-sounding woo.
To markml, I would say: My goal is to get people to think more deeply about what they believe without threat or disrespect. The target audience is not exactly on "our side," and so I have to walk a very fine line. It isn't easy. Carl Sagan wrote:
"Have I ever heard a skeptic wax superior and contemptuous? Certainly. I've even sometimes heard, to my retrospective dismay, that unpleasant tone in my own voice. There are human imperfections on both sides of this issue. Even when it's applied sensitively, scientific skepticism may come across as arrogant, dogmatic, heartless, and dismissive of the feelings and deeply held beliefs of others..."
Guilty, too, m'lud.
I at least try to throw in a joke or something when it starts to look as though I'm slaughtering a sacred cow too many.
Here's a couple to be going on with:
Q: How many skeptics does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Well, yes, the room went dark shortly AFTER the bulb burned out but that doesn’t mean it CAUSED the room to go dark. There could’ve been any number of events occurring at about the same time, any one of which could’ve been the trigger for the room darkening. You're committing a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. You should just leave it as is and see if the darkness clears itself up. If not, then you should consult a qualified darkness professional and see if they can determine the cause. The last thing you want to do is go messing around with some crazy lightbulb-changing home remedy. I mean, come on! Where did you read about that anyway, the internet?
Q: How many skeptics does it take to change a light bulb?
A: 11- One to change the lighbulb and ten to criticize the inaccurate reporting of it.
It's pointless debating this with you, but those jokes are splendid!!!
...I'll leave this at that. <^>
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I think this went totally off topic. If mark will have any further issues, he can start a new topic once he thinks over his attitude. I wont let any more topics merge into one big "You suck cause I dont have a proof" theme...
Any questions about it, send me pm. Tnx.
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This conversation was actually continued in another topic
http://www.monstrous.com/forum/index.php?topic=13438.0 (http://www.monstrous.com/forum/index.php?topic=13438.0)
Nina can respond once she learns to control her emotions and not abuse her power, when decides to come back to this site of course.
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Are demons are real supernatural event?
well i would say yes. for myself i believe that demons can be a real supernatural event. I say this with nothing more than personal experience at the heart of why i say this. I have no proof beyond personal anecdotes.
I would like to add that from my own opinion what most people call demonic experience is little more than delusional thinking, typically a product of psychological projection. Archetypes synchronicities, obsessions cravings and psychological aberrations are not enough in my own rules of evidence to make it into my own classification of supernatural proof.
My own criteria of genuine supernatural experiences is the experience of an event that is so outlandish it defies the known rules of physics. Its something that the body knows directly when it experiences it. The shock is devastating to our psyche too. In the case of demonic phenomena i would add that an external appearance to visible form is part of my suggested criteria. Not psychic vision or auras, i'm on about real external manifestation. Personally i have had this. I have stretched my own rationality beyond what it could explain satisfactorily. I have done this many many times and trust me when i say that i have a very very supple imagination that can explain most things and make them sound believable, even to myself. Despite this i have been past my own personal points of no return re scientific skepticism and rationality. I have burst my own bubble and gone waaay beyond my discerning criteria of cynical skepticism regarding the supernatural.
On the subject of evidence and skepticism i would like to say that i believe skepticism to be a pretty effective barrier that keeps peoples awareness firmly separated away from the supernatural much in the same way that a set of blinkers operate.
I dont think this is merely a psychological effect. I believe it to have a more fundamental and astonishing basis.
From my own perspective i would say that individual awareness tends to occupy common regions of reality of a larger wider reality. Like bands of shared reality within a wider conglomerate of threads. To continue to explain my idea i would suggest that rational beings operate and experience their awareness in certain regions that do not coincide with supernatural phenomena.
Those people that do experience genuine supernatural events are typically those that have awareness capable of operating in non common, non rational regions.
Perhaps i can explain it better like this. I hear many people asking where on the electromagnetic scale chi and auras can be found. Personally i find the notion of the complete electromagnetic scale a good example of closed thinking that fails to take into account dimensions outside of its own measurement system. I personally believe that the electromagnetic scale is a narrow closed off portion of reality that is very very far from being complete. It is just one that we have langauge and tools to measure. I find it ignorant to think that reality stops at the limits of our ability to measure it. That for me is one of the limits of rational scientific thinking, ie it is only one small part of what is available to us as aware beings.
The key to experiencing supernatural events is in gaining access to bands of reality outside the region of common rationality. For that to happen may actually require you to do something new though, ie access those other bands by actually doing something different. Actually understanding what i have written about above from my point of view would be a good start.
One of those cliched religious quotes springs to mind just now about Mohammed and the mountain, except im sure its the wrong way round.
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"From my own perspective i would say that individual awareness tends to occupy common regions of reality of a larger wider reality. Like bands of shared reality within a wider conglomerate of threads. To continue to explain my idea i would suggest that rational beings operate and experience their awareness in certain regions that do not coincide with supernatural phenomena.
Those people that do experience genuine supernatural events are typically those that have awareness capable of operating in non common, non rational regions. "
I like this idea, but as you've already stated you have no evidence to verify it.
You speak as if the mind is in another dimension and only seldom interacts with supernatural entities when it is in a state of irrationality. According to your theory, what is it about irrationality that allows one to become susceptible and vulnerable to the supernatural?
Wouldn't this seem to verify the idea that rationality, skepticism, and logic are "shields" of some sort against the supposed dangers of the supernatural/paranormal?
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Well let me see re evidence. I could provide witness statements. Corroborating accounts from independent sources that matched my own perceptions . Reliable witness statements typically constitute sufficient evidence in a court of law. Put me in court and i would be very believable, simply because what happened happened. I have given evidence in court on many legal matters before, often as an expert witness.
To be honest though i cant really be bothered. Im here talking to you Mark because i currently find it interesting. Im just enjoying the chat. Im not on a mission to save mankind or any other childish fantasy.
The thing is i find all the gumpf about proof and evidence all a bit silly. The real proof about supernatural stuff is a personal thing. As far as i can tell proof of anything always is. Its only ever ourselves that we prove things to. After we have proved stuff to ourselves we just spout opinions. My opinion says your opinion is wrong, or my opinion agrees with yours etc. Even science is just reducable to little more than opinions. I see scientists arguing all the time about stuff.
As for the dangers of the paranormal, i think the real dangers are at the mundane level, ie handling things badly after an event and behaving like a penishead. Thats the real danger, being a penishead. Having stupid thoughts like ' i am a vampire, i am a shapeshifting guardian of the wee folk etc. I mean seriously, its one step away from superhero costumes. We normally grow out of that pretty early on in life. Talk about developmental levels!
As for rationality etc being shields, Im twisting my face up as a result of looking at it that way. Im not really happy with that as an explanation. I would prefer to say that rationality can only measure the region it covers.
As for skepticism, well i dont believe unbiased skeptics exist. (semi-joking)
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Well let me see re evidence. I could provide witness statements. Corroborating accounts from independent sources that matched my own perceptions . Reliable witness statements typically constitute sufficient evidence in a court of law. Put me in court and i would be very believable, simply because what happened happened. I have given evidence in court on many legal matters before, often as an expert witness.
1. No number of eyewitness accounts would convince the scientific or academic community of the paranormal/supernatural's existence. Unless of course, the overwhelming majority of the scientific or academic community personally witnessed such events themselves, then they might change their minds lol. It just so happens that the overwhelming majority of scientists and such have not. I do not question your authenticity on a personal level, I question the reliability of all eye witness testimony as evidence. Science tells us not to rely on eyewitness accounts, for they are notoriously unreliable. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=do-the-eyes-have-it (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=do-the-eyes-have-it)
To be honest though i cant really be bothered. Im here talking to you Mark because i currently find it interesting. Im just enjoying the chat. Im not on a mission to save mankind or any other childish fantasy.
The thing is i find all the gumpf about proof and evidence all a bit silly. The real proof about supernatural stuff is a personal thing. As far as i can tell proof of anything always is. Its only ever ourselves that we prove things to. After we have proved stuff to ourselves we just spout opinions. My opinion says your opinion is wrong, or my opinion agrees with yours etc. Even science is just reducable to little more than opinions. I see scientists arguing all the time about stuff.
2. I'm not taking you to task for lack of evidence, it's actually quite the opposite. I'm saying that assuming you are correct about your theory, if you had to guess why irrationality allows you to become susceptible to contact with the supernatural, what is your best idea for how that works?
3. Proof and evidence silly? Come on now....how else could we be certain of the authenticity of people's statements? Science is definitely NOT just opinions. Science is based in fact, evidence, theories, etc. Theories are tested rigorously for decades or even centuries. To say that the big bang theory is merely opinion would be absurd. To say that the theory of evolution is merely opinion would be even more absurd. The two theories I referenced are anything but opinion.
As for the dangers of the paranormal, i think the real dangers are at the mundane level, ie handling things badly after an event and behaving like a penishead. Thats the real danger, being a penishead. Having stupid thoughts like ' i am a vampire, i am a shapeshifting guardian of the wee folk etc. I mean seriously, its one step away from superhero costumes. We normally grow out of that pretty early on in life. Talk about developmental levels!
As for rationality etc being shields, Im twisting my face up as a result of looking at it that way. Im not really happy with that as an explanation. I would prefer to say that rationality can only measure the region it covers.
As for skepticism, well i dont believe unbiased skeptics exist. (semi-joking)
4. Twisting up your face? Why?
"The key to experiencing supernatural events is in gaining access to bands of reality outside the region of common rationality"
That is what you said, but perhaps I'm misinterpreting it, or putting too much emphasis on one sentence.
As for the skeptics sentence; I think to be completely and utterly unbiased is a practical impossibility, nevertheless it is still a goal that should be actively sought.
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Any chance you could simply your last into something more user friendly for me?
Its like reading a 8 pronged legal document with no clear direction for the conversation otherwise. Its a total conversation killer in its current format.
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I put number for each paragraph. There's a total of 8-10 lines of writing. It shouldn't be too difficult.
The only thing that might make it look like an "8 pronged legal document" is the fact that I quoted what you wrote and responded accordingly. I think the request is a bit exaggerated.
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I will talk to most people where i find an element of flexibility or kindness to their conversation, its a form of generosity of spirit that leads to genuine exchange.
Here though i find i have lost a desire to continue the conversation.
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Very well. That is your choice.
The estimated reading time for my 4 paragraphs is perhaps 3 minutes (I read it in 2 minutes). If you have a reading disability, yes I will rewrite what I wrote. Since you have not notified me whether you have one or not, I'm going to assume you have average reading skills which should be more than sufficient to read my 4 paragraphs. You are under no obligation to respond.
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Of course there are many things that science cannot explain because these categories are beyond our understanding. When it comes to infinites, science has just theories ... about the existence of matter. And this kind of science I call faith.
Moreover, I think most people on this site are religious and thus believe in the existence of a creator they call GOD. Have you ever seen or met God? Or do you have any proofs of its existence? There are no answers to such questions, as for the existence of spirits, entities, demons, elementals ...
Can you explain telepathy? No but I am sure you already experienced the phenomenon of the phone ringing.
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I'm not sure what you mean by theories concerning the existence of matter. And that this somehow requires faith in this sort of science. Could you be more specific?
I personally think that the rational thing to do in the situation with the existence of God, along with all the other supernatural entities you referenced, in the absence of (what I consider) reliable evidence would be to simply not believe in its existence, at least until evidence is presented that would suggest otherwise. Now, if I can somehow throw together a plausible way in which something could exist or something could work, then I'll entertain that idea as being merely plausible. At least until evidence either confirms or denies it. I think it is unwise to become personally invested in ideas to the point where evidence to the contrary would not phase you.
I cannot find a single case in which telepathy actually worked. And I have never myself had a personal experience arousing my suspicion of telepathy's existence. Doing my own google search for 10-15 minutes, I have found no reliable evidence suggesting that telepathy is a real phenomena. If you can find an experiment which yielded positive results for telepathy, I am interested in hearing about it.
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The most simple experiment which you can try for yourself is to stop thinking for extended periods of time.
A couple of hours at a time should get you some new material to work with.
There is no point telling you what to expect as this might skew your analysis of any experiences that may or may not come.
I guess wether you do this or not is a matter of how much you want to know about things currently outside your current experiential set.