Monstrous
The Darker Side => Demons, Demonology and The Devil => Topic started by: Brendon87 on July 07, 2010, 06:19:49 AM
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so, who in everybodys opinion is the most evil demon out there? what do you think?
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Depends on the religious viewpoint. Lucifer is the first. The original fallen angel. So I would say him.
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humanity
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If there was a like button on here it I would press it a hundred times for what Jordyn said. It is so true.
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It would be true if humans were demons.
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Angelus is right. They're two different species. I'm not exactly sure how you expect us to quantify the levels of evil among demons. Lucifer being their leader, is at the top, but otherwise.... a demon is a demon is a demon. They're all bad, so why quibble about who's worse?
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i am not quibbling, it is a simple question. Lucifer is not a demon, my question was who the worst demon was in your opinion, not humanity, not an angel, i wanna know who u think is the worst of the worst of demonkind is?
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belial or some other crown price of hell.
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Can you, please, define 'evil'.
I call this one.
Okay evil is not understood. Most people would call the giant monster destroying a village evil. But from the monster's perspective it is defending itself or just having fun. The monster does not consider itself evil, the monster may even consider the humans evil. In that case who is evil?
In another example a lot of people do evil to do greater good. Such as in star wars the emperor did take over the galaxy but he did explain it was to rule the system properly. And to remove the "evil" Jedi group to do good. The Jedi think he is evil and he thinks the Jedi is evil. So to define who is evil is a matter of perspective.
Now some individuals will do actions that are evil just for fun. Maybe they were raised to do such actions, maybe they don't know any better, or even if they were raised better and know better is it still evil? They are still benefiting themselves so it is not completely evil if someone is happy.
Now I say that because of my definition of evil. An act that does not benefit anyone, including the perpetrator of the action. It has to be one that there is no benefit from at all. So they cannot blow themselves up or get a pleasure from people suffering. They have to be neutral in feeling of this act. Not even Satan is truly capable of evil, or is he? (I have heard he is very emotionless actually)
An act that benefits no one truly is evil isn't it? Now if you wave your hand in the air to disprove me it still is benefiting you. I am saying that to rule out many true evil actions some people may come to believe they perpetrate on a daily basis.
(No breathing is not evil either you need to do it to live, which is benefiting you)
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what allows the demons to exist, feed and have power in our world?
if a person never uttered in the entire history of humanity the word "daemon" would we actually have demons?
what if zoraster never existed, would we be aware of duality?
i still stand by my statement, humans are more evil than any demon we've ever imagined, created or named. the ultimate proof...we define evil by our own standards, influenced by accepted societal norms.
is it evil to sacrifice a living human being?
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Yes. Well. Before we get into certain off topic debates lets just get this out the way. If we are the ultimate evil for the evil we imagine, name and create then we are also the ultimate good. People always miss that part out. But going by the same rules we are the ultimate hungry, constipated, malnourished, gay, sleepy, and the other dwarfs, as we have named these conditions, and even attributed them to certain demons and such.
But the question wasn't "what is the ultimate evil and lets start a phylisophical debate about the meaning of evil?" it was what demon is the most evil. Now lets not get bogged down with the politics of evil. If tou have trouble knowing what is evil then you are an idiot. The only reason people decide to start those debates is to sound deep and edgy. You need to know what evil is? Skelator! That man was evil. You think demons are just missunderstood and how can we judge them and call them evil? In all religions (accept satanism) they are evil. Thats why they are demons. God (or that religions equivelant) shat on them and cast them to hell. Or they were born of fire and such because they are evil. The day I see a goatman help my gran across the street with her shopping I will retract that statement but I just hate how every topic where we use the word evil turns into the same debate. You want to discuss philosophy of evil start a new topic.
And sorry for any typos. i am typing this on my phone so it is figity. Lol.
Now, to answer the question. I pick Belial. He sunk atlantis. The man sank a whol freaking island full of thousands of people. Thats evil.
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How about the worst mental disorder which makes you think your seeing demons. My Mum already answered that and that would be alkiezmers and Schizophrenia. Haha the question is nearly impossible unless you ask a demon yourself because for one they know demons' its not like they have no contacts all they do and is go to hell netherland netherrealm bad place you name it and torment the dead who sinned (i don't believe in sins so haha cant go to hell now). But just wip out the good old ouija board and im sure your gonna have heaps in store for you even if its weak. I got a demon on me it came to me on voodoo (illegal in queensland australia) from my aunty who travels the world looking after childeren from 3rd world countries god shes so cool. And i got this necklace that suposedly wards away bad spirits but infact i attracts them and one apparently lives there and it takes massive amounts of energy to get out. But your probably going worst TYPE of demon is from my bible study issssssssssssss...................LEGION!!! approxxamatly thousands of weak small demons to make one big badass demon where they grow and breed inside a human shell (possesion yes shall we go on bible quote here )
And He (Jesus) asked him (the man), "What is thy name?" And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion: for we are many
I know for a fact that there i strength in numbers so id say Legion types would be the ones i would stay AWAY from
p.s Legion type isnt when there like 12 demons inside Legion is like 100 or more
nighty night dont let the bed bugs bite
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i'd say lucifer since he is the 1st and top boss XD
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pertaining to legion...it takes more than one to break down a humans will, the stronger the will the more required to beat it down, legion seems to be overused, in my opinion.
ironically one human with faith can exorcise a demon, how cool is that?
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exorcism is good unless you mess up and in that case itll get angry and your pretty much screwed...
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oh wow i change my answer to balial
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he's always been one of my favorites, azazel would probably be my second favorite, he taught us beauty and weaponmaking...but i don't think that qualifies as being most evil, most subtle maybe?
fictionally, pinhead. :D
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If I had to pick a specific demon I would say Samael. He was orginially the angel of death before he fell from heaven and he married Lilith. He also is in Hellboy and he looks bad a$$ in there lol. :evil:
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XD didn't lilith marry many guys ? XD ah well that demon sounds better than balial XD
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How about the worst mental disorder which makes you think your seeing demons. My Mum already answered that and that would be alkiezmers and Schizophrenia. Haha the question is nearly impossible unless you ask a demon yourself because for one they know demons' its not like they have no contacts all they do and is go to hell netherland netherrealm bad place you name it and torment the dead who sinned (i don't believe in sins so haha cant go to hell now). But just wip out the good old ouija board and im sure your gonna have heaps in store for you even if its weak. I got a demon on me it came to me on voodoo (illegal in queensland australia) from my aunty who travels the world looking after childeren from 3rd world countries god shes so cool. And i got this necklace that suposedly wards away bad spirits but infact i attracts them and one apparently lives there and it takes massive amounts of energy to get out. But your probably going worst TYPE of demon is from my bible study issssssssssssss...................LEGION!!! approxxamatly thousands of weak small demons to make one big badass demon where they grow and breed inside a human shell (possesion yes shall we go on bible quote here )
And He (Jesus) asked him (the man), "What is thy name?" And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion: for we are many
I know for a fact that there i strength in numbers so id say Legion types would be the ones i would stay AWAY from
p.s Legion type isnt when there like 12 demons inside Legion is like 100 or more
nighty night dont let the bed bugs bite
Im sorry i know this is off topic and no offense runningelk but telling someone to pull out a ouija board is ignorant. The ouija board is probably the most dangerous invention of man yet. It is because of this so called "game" that demons are able to do some of the most torturous things they can to humankind. once again no offense
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personal demons: the vices, cycles and personality traits that consistantly torture and tempt us, no little voice needed; just our little id standing up for itself. i name thee devil as jesse! yeah, i threw in a little jung for variety. *winks*
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hey so I'm new here and I really want to get to know how all of this works, ie spirits, deamons and the like if any one can help me out I would be very gratefull.
The first thing I want to know are the types of demons and spirits that we know of so far.
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I choose Amy.
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This is gonna take a while to sift through thanks for the help =)
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This is gonna take a while to sift through thanks for the help =)
Knowledge worth having is knowledge that must be earned.
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maybe but It would help to be able to get a book of some sort for all I know what im looking for might not even be there =/
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Knowledge worth having is knowledge that must be earned.
T'would help if you stopped to think before you responded.
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maybe but It would help to be able to get a book of some sort for all I know what im looking for might not even be there =/
well on the homepage (of course of monstrous) u could find the shop and there are books on demons and i think spirits as well but i'm not sure well u can look to see if there are any so hope that suggestion helps a bit X).
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it's called a library with a wonderful library connection that allows you to find any book in any american library with a book transfer option. religiuos writings, most western demonolgy sadly enough is derived from greco roman myth and elaborated upon by the roman church. juidaism is where most known and commonly dealt demons come from. ancient cultures like sumeria and the persians to get an idea of iranian(eastern)demonology. and for variety a brush up on the evolution of spirituality; from the prehistoric sorcerer to the flying spghetti monster and how influential lromantic literary idealism has had a hand in it's creation from marlowe and milton to cybil leek and donald tyson. "i can't find info doesn't work well here, a prime example why most who come looking to hunt demons here get ridiculed...some here have spent years studying and experiencing this stuff. everyone does it differently with their own divine guide, if you can't figure out your source of that energy how can you understand theirs?
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interestingly enough all our answers are generally all the same...learn before you jump from a frying pan into the literary fire.
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interestingly enough all our answers are generally all the same...learn before you jump from a frying pan into the literary fire.
Interestingly enough the eager young would prefer to hear what they wish and not what is said.
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interestingly enough all our answers are generally all the same...learn before you jump from a frying pan into the literary fire.
Interestingly enough the eager young would prefer to hear what they wish and not what is said.
Too bad 'young' has absolutely nothing to do with age.
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i am not quibbling, it is a simple question. Lucifer is not a demon, my question was who the worst demon was in your opinion, not humanity, not an angel, i wanna know who u think is the worst of the worst of demonkind is?
I have to disagree with this statement... Lucifer is an angel therefore he is a demon.
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i am not quibbling, it is a simple question. Lucifer is not a demon, my question was who the worst demon was in your opinion, not humanity, not an angel, i wanna know who u think is the worst of the worst of demonkind is?
I have to disagree with this statement... Lucifer is an angel therefore he is a demon.
Uhhhmmm.... last I checked, angels and demons were not the same thing, Romise.....
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Well then our understandings are off. My understanding was demon's were fallen angels.
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Well then our understandings are off. My understanding was demon's were fallen angels.
And the above statement is were your understanding is off. Your thinking that they still have a connection to their past profession. Think of it in this sense. A police officer looses his job, is he still a police officer? Can he still ticket you, arrest you, put you into prison? No? Same for the Fallen, they are no longer angels.
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Were not talking about professions here though, although that wouldn't change either just because they turned... were talking about a race. It would be like me saying I'm a dog, I may start running around on all fours, sniffing everything in sight, pissing on things, but I'm still a human. The same goes for demons, they are still angels, just with a different purpose. 0:)
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Of course all of this is mere conjecture, isnt it? We are just swapping opinions at this point.
I have a different idea of how to really find out about this, lets go direct to the horses mouth.
Lets ask the relevant parties direct.
So who here is is contact with either angels demons or God on a conversational level?
Any answers we get we can post here. Along with what we did to find out and a record of the experience.
Seems to be the most logical solution to this issue dont you think?
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I get what you mean. The fallen are still angels. Just not angels of the lord anymore. I guess. So stripped of their devine powers and cast down they would need to rely on the powers that god made them with, or they learned rather than the power they were gifted by heaven. This explains why they have different forms and abilities than that of the angels.
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That's a bingo! lol Inglorious Bastards anybody? :-D
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I have plenty of contact with demons, but it's not the kind where we sit down and have a conversation. However... that does sound like a decent idea......
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considering demons are greek deamons, i don't think they'd be the same thing as angels, as western idealizations understand...we know where angels come from but aside from a rare few like satan who's actually mentioned in the bible and demonstrated who and what he is, everything comes from greco roman myth and a few even earlier religions that were in direct competition with the israelites, hell isn't a place for souls in the bible, belial was a god of the caananites i believe, and ghenna is a refuse fire pit that was used to toss away diseased garbage, a more appropriate symbol for what early christians and jews perceived about a life without their god, not a fluffy cloud place full of harps or a fiery hole with levels and evil creatures tearing apart your soul...that's all western idealism.
translation is sucky...especially when the romans got their hands in the pie.
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I look forward to this, as per my usual.
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Were not talking about professions here though, although that wouldn't change either just because they turned... were talking about a race. It would be like me saying I'm a dog, I may start running around on all fours, sniffing everything in sight, pissing on things, but I'm still a human. The same goes for demons, they are still angels, just with a different purpose. 0:)
First off let's start with this statement.
It would be like me saying I'm a dog, I may start running around on all fours, sniffing everything in sight, pissing on things, but I'm still a human.
I want you to go to the Theran section and make similar statement to them. To be so full of yourself to say that no matter what a persons belief is they will only ever be "Human"in your Great and Almighty opinion, well that would be the epitome of conceit would it not? You will find no mere humans here and to make such assumption will earn you no understanding among those in this community.
That's only the beginning however to this reply however. Do you know what the definition of an Angel is? Did you even bother to look it up or did you just assume you knew? Hold on a minute, I'll answer that for you. YOU assumed you knew what YOU were talking about. Here, let me show you what I found after a mere 10 sec look.
http://www.answers.com/topic/angel (http://www.answers.com/topic/angel)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/angel (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/angel)
http://www.yourdictionary.com/angel (http://www.yourdictionary.com/angel)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/angel (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/angel)
What are they referred to as? Celestial beings? WOW, imagine that, Angels are Celestial beings. What does that mean exactly? Please allow me. It means that "We" have no idea what they really are but we do know what they do. I'll repeat myself, "We know what they do." Now what do we call what it is a person/entity does in service to others? Why we call it a "Job" don't we? So being an Angel is a "Job" isn't it? Now I know some people can hold two jobs but I doubt the Almighty would allow that do you? Soooo can Angels and Demons be one and the same? I will let someone else answer this. Before you answer I want to point out the closing statement.
The same goes for demons, they are still angels
Think about what I have just stated and ponder on Romises' Great and Profound statement, then get back to me.
P.S. I know I have yet to touch upon the Fallen, but this is enough for now (perhaps too much) for you to chew on. The original point was wether Angels and Demons were the same.
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Wow! I don't think I've ever seen a post where Muerte wasn't nice... O___O...
I do have to admit it though Muerte does make a good point the angels that have fallen from the grace of God are no longer angels. Even me, who hasn't been to church in *does math in my head* 15-ish years knows that. The fact that you stated that they were the same makes no sense to me, and I wonder where you got the information that they were. O_o I want to read it, that is if you didn't assume your opinion and state it as a fact.
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Ok, In regards to this statement.
It would be like me saying I'm a dog, I may start running around on all fours, sniffing everything in sight, pissing on things, but I'm still a human.
I meant no disrespect in this statement. :doh: It didn't even cross my mind, I apologize to any shifters that took offense. I was just trying to say that I believe that Demon's and Angel's are ultimately the same race, whatever that may be, one's benevolent and one's malevolent. You're right though, I don't really know what they are, nobody does, but I have my beliefs, obviously much like yourself. I do have to say that I love that everybody on this site think's they know more than everybody else. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean that I'm arrogant, I've done my fair share of research. And just because you believe differently and done your own research doesn't make you right either. Now I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just sharing my beliefs. Also, being disrespectful doesn't help you prove whatever point you're trying to make. You're response did make me laugh though. Thanks.
:focus: Who do you think the worst Demon is Muerte?
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Therians are not shifters, Weres are. And, yes, you are coming off as arrogant in your opinion just in the way you stated that. No, just being Christian does not make you arrogant, but the way you talk does. When you state something as absolutely as you did, and in the same breath tell someone that what they are saying is wrong, it makes you sound arrogant. And when you're the one that is factually wrong... it also makes you sound stupid.
As Muerte said, use the internet you obviously have access to and do a little research. Preferably before you open your yap again. :wink:
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I have to disagree with this statement... Lucifer is an angel therefore he is a demon.
Well then our understandings are off. My understanding was demon's were fallen angels.
The above statements were the catalyst which caused my responses. As they are your statements and they are incorrect (not a belief but plain incorrect) then it behooved me to point out your inadequacies. You think I am disrespectful? My dear boy that was me being nice, and that's not a threat or me preening in front of others it is a simple statement of fact. If you wish you can take the time to look through my other post and see how I used to deal with the incorrect assumption of others. There was a reason I was put in charge of this board and it's not because I look good in red or the fact that the pitch fork sets off the color of my eyes. I am thoroughly educated in my endeavors of understanding the greater majority of that which is held to be Theological (be it Angel or Demon or Jinn or ect...)
First you claimed Lucifer to be both a Demon and Angel. Incorrect. Jordyn has already provided the necessary information on this subject so I will not waste time in beating and already dead horse.
Second you said in your understanding Demons were Fallen angels, again Incorrect. Beliefs have no standing in the world of research. In the world of research something either is or it isn't, leave belief to the realm of faith.
Third I do not care if you are a Christian, Satanist, Muslim, Buddhist, Ect... If you come into my house and spout off incorrect information I am going to call you out on it. I have provided proof to my side of the debate, you sir have so far failed to do so.
Lastly I will accept your offed apology and I am entertained by the fact that my post brought amusement to you, stick around and you will see more of it in the future. As for who the worst Demon is? I personally do not consider any such beings to have one be worse than any other. They are all in their own way terrible and equally horrible.
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Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean that I'm arrogant...
That's a lie you told with your fingers.
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Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean that I'm arrogant...
That's a lie you told with your fingers.
Nice! That made me laugh. Why is it I am just noticing how 'arrogant' Catholicism, Christianity and all other branches are more arrogant and ready to say "I'm right and your wrong! End of discussion!" Makes me realize why I stopped going to church.. That and the sermons put me into a deep coma.... >_< I'm horrible and going to hell aren't I?
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Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean that I'm arrogant...
That's a lie you told with your fingers.
Nice! That made me laugh. Why is it I am just noticing how 'arrogant' Catholicism, Christianity and all other branches are more arrogant and ready to say "I'm right and your wrong! End of discussion!" Makes me realize why I stopped going to church.. That and the sermons put me into a deep coma.... >_< I'm horrible and going to hell aren't I?
For what? Telling the truth? No, you only go to Hell for doing wrong (at least you do if you follow that line of thought).
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Thank you :) Now I'm only pretty sure I'm not going to hell... considering I laugh when people fall, I kick people in the shins, and I had premarital sex... :p oh well, burning pitts and a pitchfork for me <^>
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Premarital shin kicking is pretty bad.
You will be sent to the eleventh plane of hell (just under wyoming) where short ogres will hack at you with an assortment of sharp pointy cleavers.
Either that or 'they' will wait for you on the edge of sleep tonight. If you have any guilt at all you will see 'them' waiting for you.
Sweet dreams.
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We DO have an wiki encyclopedia where (almost) all monsters are referenced.
http://www.monstropedia.org/index.php?title=Belial (http://www.monstropedia.org/index.php?title=Belial)
Please use this site and none others when you point to a creature.
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Premarital shin kicking is pretty bad.
You will be sent to the eleventh plane of hell (just under wyoming) where short ogres will hack at you with an assortment of sharp pointy cleavers.
Either that or 'they' will wait for you on the edge of sleep tonight. If you have any guilt at all you will see 'them' waiting for you.
Sweet dreams.
lmao! oh that was a good laugh! oh man... does it have to be under Wyoming? I've never seen snow and I hear it's cold.....
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The christian idea of Hell is actually based on Hel, from Norse mythology, which was itself named for its ruler, Hel, a Norse goddess. So, in this sense OldBill is actually just keeping with the truth of things.
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<^> Demon could be true based on the possesed humans
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Ladies and gentlemen... I believe we have a winner... :roll:
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The christian idea of Hell is actually based on Hel, from Norse mythology, which was itself named for its ruler, Hel, a Norse goddess. So, in this sense OldBill is actually just keeping with the truth of things.
That and I live in Wyoming hence the reference.
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<^> Demon could be true based on the possesed humans
I'd tell you to look up the definition of the word 'demon' somewhere, but we've already seen in a previous thread that your reality overrules our own. Carry on little ten year old.
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Oh dear Keanz. Markus and Muerte, and now Moloch. You are just pissing everyone off.
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Heh, seems now he's gone and irritated the two most malevolent members, and the Guardian. Their time here is going to be short indeed.
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To be totally honest with you guys, I'm not sure why you're getting irritated with him. In the other thread, I mean. It was just a question. I think it was asked from an innocent perspective. Not a popular opinion, I"m sure... but when have ever gave a crap if anyone likes what I have to say? *<:)
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I think they are getting irritated by the sole fact that he/she came here and stated something... I can't remember what, I'm half asleep... Then proceeded to not use spell check before posting while stating that they do not meet the minimum age requirements, or I could be totally wrong, and probably am. I should go to sleep now since all my cooking is now done. :banplea:
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Well, I haven't seen all of the posts of this person, I'm just going off of the two I know of. If I'm missing one, point me in the right direction.
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To be totally honest with you guys, I'm not sure why you're getting irritated with him. In the other thread, I mean. It was just a question. I think it was asked from an innocent perspective. Not a popular opinion, I"m sure... but when have ever gave a crap if anyone likes what I have to say? *<:)
He is a proven Idiot Desh, need I say more?
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i forgot what are the minimum age requirements ive been hear for a few years
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I think the minimum age is 17 if I'm not mistaken.
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I think the minimum age is 17 if I'm not mistaken.
And you would be correct.
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And why don't we raise that to 18....... and then........... this is a really crazy idea, so hold on tight........................... ENFORCE THE GOD DAMNED RULE!!!!!!
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that would be interesting, however, people are easily able to say that they are 18 when in actuality they aren't on a website.
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Ahhh, the wonderful World Wide Web; where everyone is someone else.
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Ahhh, the wonderful World Wide Web; where everyone is someone else.
However, outside that someone might be no one. Sorry had to do it.
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Everyone is no one, and no one's someone is everyone's no one.
Keep trying, I promise I'll give everyone here a migraine before long.
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I'm already going through caffeine withdraw, so even if you could give one, it'll be after I get more caffeine lol.
Plus I can't think of anything as a come back.
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that would be interesting, however, people are easily able to say that they are 18 when in actuality they aren't on a website.
And do you know how many of these little twits we have gotten to admit to their real age??
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that would be interesting, however, people are easily able to say that they are 18 when in actuality they aren't on a website.
And do you know how many of these little twits we have gotten to admit to their real age??
No, but I am very curios to know now that you have brought it up. :)
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Not to mention the ones we've broken and sent running to their mommy...... <^>
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I sooo wanna know! ^___^
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Look around, CP.... you'll see more than one thread, lol.
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I know, I have been, Slowly making progress in trying to read all the threads... So many to read :) However, I do know I'll stay entertained for oh so many years. :D lol
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Haha. Yeah, I'm sure there's plenty to be found. A little less now, but still plenty.
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lol, I have found quiet a few, but I'm working on on thread at a time, and starting from the past working to the present, that is when I'm not at work or logged on. When I'm logged on I seem to have this button pushing problem of hitting unread posts.... >_< lol
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Me too!! I'm addicted to that button!!
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At least I'm not the only one! :D
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I'm not trying to be religious but if god created everything then god created evil. He's king of both, and he's the worst because he created humans, demons, death, war. I'm not trying to put anyone down but thats the truth of it from my perspective.
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is he the worse or are we more like Him than anyone really wants to admit?
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If he's really that bad, then I was definitely made in his image.
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we all were, if you want to get technical. :wink:
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Did God create demons? I could have sworn it was the fallen angels, but hell, I've been wrong before. I'm not religious, but as for God being evil, have you ever read anything from the bible? Hes not so much evil as he is one mean son of a lady. Besides, I could have sworn we created war. While conflict does happen in nature, it doesn't happen on the same scale or as pointlessly (is that a word?) as we make it. And as for death, well, they say God created all life. Whos to say he created everything?
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we all were, if you want to get technical. :wink:
I was being sarcastic. It was the only thing that could follow a post like that. *<:)
Did God create demons? I could have sworn it was the fallen angels, but hell, I've been wrong before. I'm not religious, but as for God being evil, have you ever read anything from the bible? Hes not so much evil as he is one mean son of a lady. Besides, I could have sworn we created war. While conflict does happen in nature, it doesn't happen on the same scale or as pointlessly (is that a word?) as we make it. And as for death, well, they say God created all life. Whos to say he created everything?
I'm pretty sure the Bible says He created everything. And 'death' isn't referred to as a creature. Yes, the demons created themselves by the sins committed. As has man.
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Olivier :)
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Olivier :)
What the Hell is that supposed to mean?
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Olivier :)
What the Hell is that supposed to mean?
Means I cast my vote for Olivier. He is a fallen archangel prince. I know someone said not angels but i figure since Lucifer has ben mentioned id say Olivier.
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I see. You are referring to Father Michaelis list then. Yeah, considering there is never any real mention from any other source I tend to ignore that source as a representable one. Not saying that I don't know about it, just that if it is only mentioned once well......enough said.