Monstrous
Apocalypse Soon => Conspiracies => Topic started by: Shadowborn on February 04, 2007, 03:04:09 PM
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Here's a piece of a documentary from the National Geographic Channel that provides some nice objective evidence from an outside source that pokes a few gaping wholes in this fairly ridiculous conspiracy theory. Enjoy.
http://www.filecabi.net/video/landed-on-the-moon.html (http://www.filecabi.net/video/landed-on-the-moon.html)
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Hello Shadowborn.. There is ample evidence to provide the likely possibility of a hoax or coverup of some kind surrounding the supposed Apollo moon landings.. The least of which being the fact that we're not slated for return until 2020.. They say "we know all there is to know about the moon", and that's why they haven't gone back.. Really? You've been to the moon a handful of times and you know all there is to know about it, yet we're still discovering new things here on Earth every day? How does that make sense? We still don't know what's at the bottom of the ocean, but we've been to the moon and know all there is to know about it? How does that make sense..? :?
But, we could have a 20 page debate on the Moon Landings, and we'd both be likely to have the same positions that we currently have.. It's like JFK, or even 911. You either believe there is a coverup of some kind, you don't, or you're on the fence..
I'm willing to debate and raise questions and answers about all of these events, but some people will not be persuaded, on either side of the argument, no matter how much evidence you present..
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I'd like to know who the "they" are you refer to. I've seen plenty of reasons why we haven't been back to the moon, and none of then included "we know all there is to know." Seems to me the biggest reason we haven't been back is politics. The initial push to land on the moon was politically motivated. Manned space travel is incredibly expensive, and the funds have to be approved by Congress. Without the proper political climate, one wouldn't expect the funding to be approved without a big payoff. Right now, Bush wants a manned base established as a jumping off point for a manned Mars mission.
We may not know all there is to know about the moon, but we do know that it has no breathable atmosphere, no sizable bodies of water on it, and its not likely to yield any useful minerals that aren't readily available here on earth (unless its core happens to be a huge diamond, or filled with oil) so there really isn't any pertinent reason to throw billions of dollars into it...especially considering we're already funneling billions of dollars of deficit spending into the Iraq situation.
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I'd like to know who the "they" are you refer to.
Well, in this case it would be NASA (notice that if you add a T, it's an anagram to SATAN?), and the corporate and political bodies which give NASA it's funding.. NASA which was primarilly founded from NAZI scientists and war criminals who were given refuge in the United States for agreeing to share their knowledge of rocket science and WWII era German technology and engineering...
I've seen plenty of reasons why we haven't been back to the moon, and none of then included "we know all there is to know."
That's one of the biggest excuses I've always heard.. That "There's nothing else to discover about the moon. We played golf there and now America owns the moon."
Seems to me the biggest reason we haven't been back is politics. The initial push to land on the moon was politically motivated. Manned space travel is incredibly expensive, and the funds have to be approved by Congress. Without the proper political climate, one wouldn't expect the funding to be approved without a big payoff. Right now, Bush wants a manned base established as a jumping off point for a manned Mars mission.
I just find it extremely peculiar that it's going to be another 15 years before the US goes back, and it's already been 30+ years since they sent the first few missions..
And another thing which has always seemed very strange, is the whole notion of the "Space Race" in the first place (which was mostly for weaponized purposes, satellites, etc,).. If RUSSIA was in such a hurry to beat the United States to the moon, and they were so close to obtaining it, why have they still not went in nearly 40 years?!? It just seems rather hokey to me to think that "Well, the US got to the moon first, now we're going to abandon the thought of sending a man to the moon, and our economy is going to collapse so the well known ACTOR, Ronald Reagan can come along later and declare and end to the "Cold War")..
Maybe I'm crazy, maybe I am. But it all just seems so hoaxed and scripted. It just doesnt' add up..
We may not know all there is to know about the moon, but we do know that it has no breathable atmosphere, no sizable bodies of water on it, and its not likely to yield any useful minerals that aren't readily available here on earth (unless its core happens to be a huge diamond, or filled with oil) so there really isn't any pertinent reason to throw billions of dollars into it...especially considering we're already funneling billions of dollars of deficit spending into the Iraq situation.
I agree with you, and mining might be a very damaging thing for both the Moon AND the Earth.. The new version of "The Time Machine" covers this very topic, as the Earth is accidently broken into several pieces because of excessive mining on the moon, and the chunks are falling to Earth and destroying cities. The tides are going crazy and flooding everything..
I realize this is a Science Fiction story, but traveling to the moon itself was Science Fiction until 100 some years ago with the emergence of this genre of literature.. Heck, maybe man going to the moon is STILL Science Fiction..
I don't trust NASA.. I know that they have brilliant and genius scientists working for them, and a billion dollar budget or whatever, but some of the "discoveries" they make would be so easy to fake.. So much more easy to FAKE it than to actually do it.. And who would really know besides a few people at the top?
I've got like 6-8 hours of documentary footage covering the various moon landings from 69 thru the early 70's.. I've watched it, and watched it, and it just seems very staged.. It seems very "Hollywood" and made to look real..
I'm just personally not convinced...
But, I'm pretty much 50/50 on the matter of the moon landings, and if we didn't go in 69, perhaps we've had secret missions since then...
Just to me, the whole scenario doesn't add up right, and the available footage and images haven't properly convinced me.. Add the fact that nobody has been in 35 years, and there were people who have thought it was hoaxed from day one, and I'm still in need of more evidence than so-called "experts" telling me what reality is.....
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What is your view on the rovers we sent to Mars?
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The problem with the conspiracy theory is the whole scope of it. How unlikely is it that in the past 38 years, assuming that it was all a hoax, that no one involved in it has come forward? What exactly could stop a single leak of information? We've had technology secrets stolen by the Chinese, Civil War documents stolen from archives to be sold on eBay, yet not a single person comes forward to break the silence on a conspiracy which would do nothing but jeopardize the legacy of a dead president and embarass NASA? I don't think so. There are entirely too many factors involved, and the simple answer is almost always preferable to the complex one. Occam's Razor, and all that.
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ZAK
What is your view on the rovers we sent to Mars?
I really don't know what to think about the rovers, and all these supposed, crisp, clear and prestine satellite images they are supposedly sending back from the far side of the solar system.. All I know is that they sent "Spirit" and "Opportunity" just in time for a Christmas touchdown, just like they sent back a bunch of new and eerie pics of Saturn just in time for Halloween 2006.. Like, not only are you able to do these things, but you can time them up to Holidays as well?!? That's some talent!!
I know I might sound crazy to some, but my verdict is still out concerning my personal thoughts on NASA's accomplishments in space.. I know there's a space station, I know people can orbit the Earth and work in space for months at a time, I know there's a Hubble telescope that can take some pretty amazing images, but I'm not sure about the Rovers and Satellites.. Especially those satellites currently observing the outer planets..
Shadow
The problem with the conspiracy theory is the whole scope of it. How unlikely is it that in the past 38 years, assuming that it was all a hoax, that no one involved in it has come forward? What exactly could stop a single leak of information? We've had technology secrets stolen by the Chinese, Civil War documents stolen from archives to be sold on eBay, yet not a single person comes forward to break the silence on a conspiracy which would do nothing but jeopardize the legacy of a dead president and embarass NASA? I don't think so. There are entirely too many factors involved, and the simple answer is almost always preferable to the complex one. Occam's Razor, and all that.
I'm under the impression that only a very small number of people at the top even know that it's a conspiracy or cover-up of some kind, or have any real evidence of it.. Even the technicians and computer analyst for the moon landings, could have been watching hoaxed read-outs..
I always found it funny.. Just look at the TECHNOLOGY involved with the moon landing missions.. They are SOOOO OUTDATED, giant bulky buttons everywhere, computers that you can hardly read with scrolling and flipping screens, big printers shooting out (slowly, slowly, slowly) pages and pages of data.. And hundreds of guys just sitting around, looking fairly bored, smoking cigarettes...
To me, Occam's Razor in this case, points to hoax.. If the simplest answer is the most likely, than the simple answer is that it's easier to hoax going to the moon, and even covering it up, than it is to actually go to the moon... Especially in the early 70's, but it's obviously not a very easy task to accomplish TODAY either, since nobody is going back for at least 15 more years..
Please consider this small example of the deception that can take place..
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/moonhoax.html
Thousands of readers, many of them very well educated, believed in and speculated over this hoax for years....
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5762/moonru4.jpg)
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I respect your opinions Shadow, I'm not trying to argue with you.. But, what do you think of things like the JFK assassination for instance? Would you agree that there is some kind of cover up with that event? And if so, would you agree that in it's own way, it's connected with Kennedy declaring "We'll put a man on the moon (by the end of the 60's) not because we have to, but because we can."?
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I'm under the impression that only a very small number of people at the top even know that it's a conspiracy or cover-up of some kind, or have any real evidence of it.. Even the technicians and computer analyst for the moon landings, could have been watching hoaxed read-outs..
That doesn't begin to explain the big rocket full of astronauts that shot up into space within view of the windows of that command center, all the people at Cape Canaveral who saw it go up, and the time it took to reach the moon, touch down, and return, only to splashdown in the ocean and be recovered by the U.S. Navy. There is no doubt that a team of astronauts went up that day. Why did it take them so long to come down? Were they just up there orbiting the whole time? What about all the other Apollo missions and moon landings? Are they all hoaxes too? If so, why do so many of them, when only one could have sufficed?
To me, Occam's Razor in this case, points to hoax.. If the simplest answer is the most likely, than the simple answer is that it's easier to hoax going to the moon, and even covering it up, than it is to actually go to the moon... Especially in the early 70's, but it's obviously not a very easy task to accomplish TODAY either, since nobody is going back for at least 15 more years..
Three people can keep a secret, if two of them are dead, as the saying goes. What's stopping anyone that could have been involved in a moon landing hoax from coming forward with convincing evidence and making a mint on a book deal and TV interviews? The cold war is over, what's the government going to do, have them killed for admitting it?
Please consider this small example of the deception that can take place..
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/moonhoax.html
Thousands of readers, many of them very well educated, believed in and speculated over this hoax for years....
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/5762/moonru4.jpg)
Interesting, but one must also remember that our scientific knowledge at that time was much more limited, as was our capacity to garner accurate data. We had to make do with what we could learn from telescopic observation of the sky.
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I respect your opinions Shadow, I'm not trying to argue with you.. But, what do you think of things like the JFK assassination for instance? Would you agree that there is some kind of cover up with that event? And if so, would you agree that in it's own way, it's connected with Kennedy declaring "We'll put a man on the moon (by the end of the 60's) not because we have to, but because we can."?
I have no fear of argument...I rather enjoy it, actually. 8-)
As for the JFK assassination, I've seen some recent work done on that where some experts used a ballistic gel model and took shots recreating the "magic bullet" effect with a single shot fired. They had all their data recorded. They showed the model to other experts, who were quick to claim that it was impossible to have that sort of damage without more than one bullet. Then they were shown the data and had to concede. I'll have to see if I can dig it up again later when I've got the time.
So in answer to your question, no, I don't think there is any kind of coverup, nor do I think that such a coverup would be because of a hoaxed moonlanding. The only thing that strikes me as strange in the JFK assassination is that his brain allegedly went missing from his body during the transport between Texas and Washington D.C., and I've never seen any actual evidence that supports that claim as being true; all I have is hearsay.
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That doesn't begin to explain the big rocket full of astronauts that shot up into space within view of the windows of that command center, all the people at Cape Canaveral who saw it go up, and the time it took to reach the moon, touch down, and return, only to splashdown in the ocean and be recovered by the U.S. Navy. There is no doubt that a team of astronauts went up that day. Why did it take them so long to come down? Were they just up there orbiting the whole time? What about all the other Apollo missions and moon landings? Are they all hoaxes too? If so, why do so many of them, when only one could have sufficed?
I've no doubt they orbited, as there is ample footage of these events.. My question, where is all that footage of the actual TRIP from the Earth to the Moon? All the footage starts with the astronauts orbiting Earth, talking about how beautiful it is, then they just show some generic image of the Earth getting smaller and smaller, and then, all of a sudden, there's the moon..
Surely, as documented as this event was, there would have been a large amount of footage of the actual trip to the moon.. Not just orbit, and arrival at the Lunar surface...?
And what footage has been shown of "leaving orbit" does not look at all convicincing..
As for why they made so many "moon landings", geeze man, look how many crappy sequels they make to movies... They got away with it once, so they did it again, and again, and again.. No doubt, one of the biggest and most absolute hoaxes in the history of humankind..
I think Russia was in on it, as well as other prominent nations.. They are doing what they think is the best thing, but they are putting our intelligence and gullibility to the test in the process..
The more power they see they have over us, the more we believe in their lies, the more they will lie to us.. They will think that we WANT lies...
Three people can keep a secret, if two of them are dead, as the saying goes. What's stopping anyone that could have been involved in a moon landing hoax from coming forward with convincing evidence and making a mint on a book deal and TV interviews? The cold war is over, what's the government going to do, have them killed for admitting it?
Quite honestly, yes, they would probably kill, or "dispose of" any people who had REAL EVIDENCE for hoax, and were coming forward... They probably have killed people who were working for NASA and coming forward.. I think GUS GRISSOM is one such evidence for this..
He was quoted as saying something to the affect of, in 1966, "There's no way we're going to get to the moon by the end of the decade" , when reporting on multiple failures and technical problems that was taking place within a wide array of NASA equipment.. He, along with astronauts Ed White and Roger Chaffee, were killed in a suspicious malfunction in their cabin, resulting in a fire which burned them alive....
Interesting, but one must also remember that our scientific knowledge at that time was much more limited, as was our capacity to garner accurate data. We had to make do with what we could learn from telescopic observation of the sky.
Personally, aside from some bells and whistles, I don't think we're that much different today than we were 150 years ago.. Or 2000 or 4000 years ago for that matter.. We still believe the same lies.. For the most part, the same exact religions are still followed by millions...
Science, and all the variations thereof, be it evolution or the moon landings, are a religion in of themselves, and open to just as much corruption and manipulation of evidences and data..
So in answer to your question, no, I don't think there is any kind of coverup, nor do I think that such a coverup would be because of a hoaxed moonlanding. The only thing that strikes me as strange in the JFK assassination is that his brain allegedly went missing from his body during the transport between Texas and Washington D.C., and I've never seen any actual evidence that supports that claim as being true; all I have is hearsay.
I think there is a great deal of evidence suggesting a massive coverup in the events of JFK's murder.. Oswald himself, murdered the next day by a Mafia agent, claimed that he was only a patsy and that there were other shooters.. The VIDEO FOOTAGE itself shows that the shot did not come from behind where Oswald was situated...
On a scale of 1-10, the JFK hoax was a 7, the Moon Landing was a 9, and September 11th was an 8..
We have yet to see the 10.......
But they get away with 1-6 on a daily basis....
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Actually, you see "10" every time you bring up Area 51. Think about it...they use that base and the folks who work there to keep everyone focused on it, while the real shinola hits the fan elswhere. What is the single greatest talent a good magician must have? The ability to redirect his audience's attention away from the 'trick' or in this case action.
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Now that the space race is over, what is the gain of keeping up the hoaxes? Look at America, we let a sexual deviant (Clinton) and a drug abusing recovering alcholic (Bush) run the country, what would be the shame of admitting we faked the landing? Hell we may even get kudos for pulling it off!
I'm just missing the advantages of maintaining and making new space hoaxes.
What do they gain?
ZRY
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No kidding. With all the ineptitude and scandal the current administration is rife with, one might think this is the perfect time to blow the top off of that conspiracy...it might keep the media focused long enough for Bush to finish his term and slink off into obscurity.
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Now that the space race is over, what is the gain of keeping up the hoaxes? Look at America, we let a sexual deviant (Clinton) and a drug abusing recovering alcholic (Bush) run the country, what would be the shame of admitting we faked the landing? Hell we may even get kudos for pulling it off!
I'm just missing the advantages of maintaining and making new space hoaxes.
What do they gain?
ZRY
We're still in the throes of that hoax. People are still expecting progress from NASA. The 'Sci-Fi' era of the late 19th century and early 20th century, built such a high hope and expectation of science, that REALITY had to rise to meet some of that challenge. People were expecting progress. Progress had to be met, to gain further control over a growing population..
They soared and soared, but fell short, I think, when it comes to setting man on the moon. At least in 69 when they announced it.
They keep the hoax going, because they have no need to expose it, unquestionably prove the hoax, at this point.. They have nothing to gain from revealing the hoax, and everything to gain by maintaining it.
But perhaps they (NASA) do fund some elements of the "conspiracy" moon landing movement as well. Just to keep a hand in the evidence and unfolding of the situation.. I'd be absolutely positive that government agencies, infiltrators, corporations, politics, have a hand in "conspiracy movements" of all kinds. Playing both sides of the coin helps to keep a certain level of control...
Personally, I don't think that the hoax of the landing will ever be proven...
The only way that could happen is if the government came forward, admitted to everything, showed how they did it, and explained why they did it.
At this point it doesn't seem very likely that this will ever happen... :?
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And, to play 'Devil's Advocate', say that the moon landings were undoubtedly HOAXED..
Or the JFK assassination..
Or 911..
2 Stolen elections..
War..
Or any number of huge events..
Think of the sense of POWER they must have when they get away with things like this.
The intoxicating curse of mass social manipulation.
And they'll keep going bigger and bigger, as long as the propaganda campaign is firmly in place, the media is compliant, and people keep believing the illusion... :evil:
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Umm......... so who won? prehorusin04 or shadowborn? :|
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what about moon rocks ? evidence ? or could they have come from a comet or something and been used as key tools in getting people to believe we went to the moon to collect them?
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Those can be easily faked. and most of the scientists that speciallize in astronomy are in NASA.
It would be exceddingly easy for them to make fakes. one conspiracy ties in with another..............
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I agree with you Raz. Moon rocks could be manufactured in laboratories, or as well, remnants of moon rocks have been found on Earth, primarily in arctic regions.
Though it's from WIKI, here is a decent collection of some of the hoax accusations. Though, there are still some biggies that they leave out...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Moon_Landing_hoax_accusations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Moon_Landing_hoax_accusations)
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9602/moonlandingbg8.jpg)
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Umm......... so who won? prehorusin04 or shadowborn? :|
I didn't realize it was a contest. :-D
Seriously though, I firmly believe that Occam's Razor is the right train of thought when dealing with conspiracy theories. The amount of micro-management necessary to perpetuate a hoax of the magnitude that a faked moon landing would be, the amount of people that would have to be monitored, controlled, and silenced (if necessary) is too great to manage. Hell, our government can't even balance a budget, let alone pull off a hoax of this magnitude without some sort of leak. Nixon's scandal was ferreted out by a few media hounds. If there was a conspiracy, someone would have exposed it by now.
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And what if the only folks who knew it to be a hoax were the "astronauts", and a select handful of G-men, which would also exclude the Pres.? In a case like that, you only have maybe a dozen who are in the know, a more manageable number wouldn't you agree? (FFYI: I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here.)
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And what if the only folks who knew it to be a hoax were the "astronauts", and a select handful of G-men, which would also exclude the Pres.? In a case like that, you only have maybe a dozen who are in the know, a more manageable number wouldn't you agree? (FFYI: I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here.)
The studio would have to be rented, the camera and lighting equipment, not to mention the actual lunar module, moonbuggy, flag, and other equipment would have to be requisitioned, bought, or rented. (Or stolen, but then there would be more of a paper trail, not to mention suspicion.)
A few G-men? Like who, for example? What government officials have more authoratiative power than the President? Now we're moving into the realm of the X-files, some shadow government sitting in a smoky room making decisions that not even the leader of our country knows about, and somehow getting away with it...
What if they got caught? Is beating the Russians in the space race, which was a symbolic gesture more than any real concrete victory, worth federal prosecution and prison?
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The UN moves trains and such through our country unchecked now, in this age of information super-saturation. So, how much easier would it have been back in the '60's when people actually trusted the government? It would be much easier then to do those things and get away with it. The government built an entire small city in a mountain and it never leaked out till after the Cold War was over. To answer your question, yes, I believe it is quite possible that this could be a plausible scenario. As for the X-files stuff, who knows, maybe FEMA is the new shadow government, or whatever the in-term is right now.
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the renting of stuff is something i could have done.
Paper trails can be burned. and the only ones who knew what they were doing were the ones doing the conspiracy.
astronomy specialists are exceedingly rare when outside nasa/nasa affiliates.
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The UN moves trains and such through our country unchecked now, in this age of information super-saturation. So, how much easier would it have been back in the '60's when people actually trusted the government? It would be much easier then to do those things and get away with it. The government built an entire small city in a mountain and it never leaked out till after the Cold War was over. To answer your question, yes, I believe it is quite possible that this could be a plausible scenario. As for the X-files stuff, who knows, maybe FEMA is the new shadow government, or whatever the in-term is right now.
Was said "city" built without the knowledge elected government officials? Not likely. What about my question concerning the outcome being worth the risk? What would be the point of continuing such a charade? Who benefits?
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the renting of stuff is something i could have done.
Paper trails can be burned. and the only ones who knew what they were doing were the ones doing the conspiracy.
astronomy specialists are exceedingly rare when outside nasa/nasa affiliates.
Sure, you or I could rent the stuff, but how do you go about not arousing suspicion? Or for that matter, even simple curiosity? Someone would have to build replicas of both the lunar module and the moonbuggie (a working model at that) and transport them around without raising any sort of questions as to why they were made. The originals were government property, and you can't just walk away with that sort of thing on a whim.
Proverb: Three men can keep a secret, if two of them are dead.
So are you trying to say that astronomy specialists across the country were in on the conspiracy? I don't know what you're trying to say with that statement.
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Buget equals really high. They could have built the stuff themselves and rented out a place which they or someone they knew owned under a fake or annonymous name.
some people can be convinced and some could just disappear like some paper work. they have the money. and if the goverment was in it. then they defintely had the connections
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You know what I should do. I should get my degree in physics and geology then work for NASA (with my best friend who is planning to work there after schooling for it) and then get myself shot to the moon :gun: and then we will see about moon hoxes when I take pictures of myself and post it on here... someday maybe but I will have to ride a "real" plane one day and not just a helecopter and a small two person plane (just to see if I can actully handle it).
Truthfully I don't believe it was fake because it was 1969 (they didn't have really good special effects)... plus we have been there since then so... as long as there are no batlike people on the moon I will be fine (for all of thouse who don't know what I am talking about you need to really read The Great Moon Hoax in the New York Sun by John Herschel. Now there is a moon hoax, kind of funny actully...
Is there anyone who wants to go with me to the moon someday and maybe even Mars???
P.S you can make replicas of everything take a look at the movie "The Master of Disguise"...
TURTLE TURTLE TURTLE! sorry had to do it I couldn't resist... :focus:
anyways...
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Buget equals really high. They could have built the stuff themselves and rented out a place which they or someone they knew owned under a fake or annonymous name.
some people can be convinced and some could just disappear like some paper work. they have the money. and if the goverment was in it. then they defintely had the connections
Ok, but my main, most pressing question remains unanswered. Why? Why go through all the trouble? And, once it's been done, and the space race doesn't matter any more, why still keep it a secret, and at what cost?
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Why? Like I said, for the prestige and psychological boost of being first. They would then keep it a secret because that's where their power resides, in their secrets. You can't hide from the sun in a glass house, unless you paint it black.
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Ok...and hypothetically, if Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin decided to collaborate on a book which blew the cover off the conspiracy, exposing the secret that they'd never been to the moon and everything was actually faked in a studio, then what? What sort of retaliation do you think would occur? Also, I'd like to know just who it is that is keeping this all a secret? Presidents and Congress, as well as cabinet members, CIA operatives, all of them come and go. Some of them are no longer alive. Who exactly is it that is keeping this all a big secret?
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Maybe the president dosn't know...... politicians are temporary figure heads afterall(albeit ones with power)
Do ya think there could be others that work behind the sceens?
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Ok...and hypothetically, if Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin decided to collaborate on a book which blew the cover off the conspiracy, exposing the secret that they'd never been to the moon and everything was actually faked in a studio, then what? What sort of retaliation do you think would occur?
Well, they're both FREEMASONS who have taken oaths of secrecy (seriously). Plus, they believe that the LIE is for the good of all mankind, or at least America. They have no motive for revealing the hoax, except for perhaps on their death bed confessions. And even then, I highly doubt it.
Likewise, there are far bigger potatoes than the Freemason organization in the world of "secret societies". They are usually the scape-goats, but their oaths last a lifetime.