Monstrous
Witches Brew => Pagan Living => Topic started by: Anaya on May 12, 2011, 01:17:26 PM
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*Shrug* I'm firmly set on life after death and no one can sway it from me. I have too many attachments and interactions with the after life to say otherwise. *shrug* I can't persuade anyone but myself to believe though.
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^I'm not arguing that there's no life after death, because there definitely is. What I mean to say when I agree with her is that I'm certain that most souls do not linger in an earth-bound state for far too long unless there's some kind of a problem, or unless the manner of their death was timed incorrectly or something (not that she mentioned or implied that she believed in that). I've yet to do extreme research or anything in that respect, though.
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I was just stating where I stood xD to each their own belief. I'm a believer of what my friend called 'recycled souls', after a soul has lived their 7 lives--or until they are incapable of any further, their soul is broken into bits of energy that reforms to present a new soul. *shrug* But that is part of my one-of-a-kind religion that I made xD;;
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Ahahaha, that's a very interesting concept :P I believe firmly in reincarnation, but there are so many tenets and principles to it that it's hard for me to explain it in one go here. Hopefully when there's an appropriate discussion venue for it, I'll go into detail. That's what I mean when I say souls "pass on," but I don't believe it's a "40-day period" or a definite set time. I think it's different for each soul.
But uh.... I'll stop there. :P
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reincarnate, yes, but not linger here without a body and purpose
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While I do agree with the possibility of reincarnation and even the dispersion and regathering of energy in a different form, I still do believe a "spirit" can stay as long as it chooses too. No need for body or purpose.
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Quite. Astral projection is an exact example of such a thing.
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Astral projection usually does happen for a purpose and "from" a body. People train for years to be able to do it, except those very rare individuals that just "get" it.
How many "spirits" did u communicate with exactly that made you come to this conclusion? And what made you believe they were ever human?
A SOUL doesnt stay here like that.
But everyone here has right for their own opinion ;)
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For the pure fact I have a large amount that I communicate with on a daily basis, one being my spirit guide, and the rest having come to me over time? I would say a good deal numbered and if everyone has their own opinion, you shouldn't ask for me to validate mine...
This so far sounds like a set up for a debate. As my belief in spirits and after life is religious, this is hardly the section for it so I suggest this topic direction desist and return to it's original direction.
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And voila, heres the new topic as suggested ;)
Spirit and soul.
Many have questioned the true meaning and nature of those. Are they same to even begin with? I believe you do contact something, but i hardly believe those are human souls. Also, i do agree this is a religious debate opening, and this could be tricky cause all of us have different belief sistems. Im sure that, as it always is with those religious things, it could go away from starting point and end up in an endless argument with a lot of pouting ;)
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You the say the energy can disperse and reform into something new, so what makes you believe it has to reform into something human? I mean, and I don't say this because of Supernatural though they did have something like it, whos to say that a spirit guide wasn't once a regular human soul? Whos to say where any of these things came to be? Even then, yes I do know people that have come to know spirits. And as to what makes them sure its human, they havn't had reason to believe otherwise. And its not the spirit of someone they knew. Its not about being more comfortable thinking anything to be human either, and while I don't expect any ofyouto trust me simply on my word, understand that these people have never given me reason to doubt them.
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I dont doubt you trust those people and i dont doubt those people trust the entities they are communicating with. Im just doubting the nature of those, and their agenda.
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Astral projection usually does happen for a purpose and "from" a body. People train for years to be able to do it, except those very rare individuals that just "get" it.
I've astral projected three times before, Nina, and I'm relatively young in comparison to those on these forums who post about their experiences. It's not quite as difficult as you are making it sound.
And while AP requires a body to "project" from, it does not mean that souls cannot travel without need of a body. There are various sources that say the same. Of course, we could delve into theology for source material, but I find that oftentimes theological sources are not the best in terms of accurate information.
Some people have shared that, in Near Death Experiences (accidental Astral Projection that occurs because a person is about to die, soul-leaving-body, but they are drawn back), they have felt people they understood to be dead.
Spirit and soul.
Many have questioned the true meaning and nature of those. Are they same to even begin with? I believe you do contact something, but i hardly believe those are human souls. Also, i do agree this is a religious debate opening, and this could be tricky cause all of us have different belief sistems. Im sure that, as it always is with those religious things, it could go away from starting point and end up in an endless argument with a lot of pouting ;)
I wouldn't even put it at religion, if we're looking at some basic principles of it. Take information the different types of hauntings, personal accounts, and causes of death, and I feel like you've got it. Not to mention the fact that, while we're all human beings, we're not all the same. It's like comparing the lifetime of an owl to that of a cat's. How can we be so sure as to how long a soul remains on earth? I actually have a fascinating collection of books which discuss the topic of death from a very objective POV. I'll be sure to share excerpts in my next post (or modify this one if no one posts before then) -- you might find it interesting.
Now, to talk about personal experiences, I have various anecdotes of relatives recently deceased, who have never met one another; I have notes from my own experience; I have notes from my contacts who have done a lot of study in this field. Again, I'm not at home, so unfortunately I can't provide these things to you right away (my apologies for the constant "holding off" - it's not intentional!).
If we were to add religious intonations into the mix (and again, remaining unreligious at the same time), we can add demonic forces into this conversation. Inhuman hauntings are the most dangerous -- and we've agreed that oftentimes they are demonic. [I had a really good point to go with this, but as I'm dead tired the thought has flown out of my head almost completely, lol. I'll put it back in once I've got it again.] However, as you mentioned, religious debates can end in pouting, so we can steer clear of discussing inhuman hauntings altogether.
You the say the energy can disperse and reform into something new, so what makes you believe it has to reform into something human? I mean, and I don't say this because of Supernatural though they did have something like it, whos to say that a spirit guide wasn't once a regular human soul? Whos to say where any of these things came to be? Even then, yes I do know people that have come to know spirits. And as to what makes them sure its human, they havn't had reason to believe otherwise. And its not the spirit of someone they knew. Its not about being more comfortable thinking anything to be human either, and while I don't expect any ofyouto trust me simply on my word, understand that these people have never given me reason to doubt them.
I think this is quite possible, if we're going to talk detail. There's no black-and-white in this part of the world, so to speak. There can't be a "set cutoff date" or a "this is exactly what always happens." Maybe once I get a chance to look through a few more notes, I can share my thoughts on the matter in a more concise form. :P That said, yes, I agree.
I don't, however, believe that all entities are trustworthy (and I'm not implying that you said that, either) -- sometimes, as we know, entities pose. That isn't to say that what you're stating here isn't true, because I'm certain that in the midst of all of those negative entities or "impostor" ones, per say, there are a few genuine ones. If there's nothing to pose as, why pose at all?
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I've astral projected three times before, Nina, and I'm relatively young in comparison to those on these forums who post about their experiences. It's not quite as difficult as you are making it sound.
I didnt say its impossible, just hard, specially for someone that doesnt have any experience in meditation p.e. which i believe u have, being from a hinduist family. (if i used the wrong word here, i apologize).
I wouldn't even put it at religion, if we're looking at some basic principles of it. Take information the different types of hauntings, personal accounts, and causes of death, and I feel like you've got it. Not to mention the fact that, while we're all human beings, we're not all the same. It's like comparing the lifetime of an owl to that of a cat's. How can we be so sure as to how long a soul remains on earth? I actually have a fascinating collection of books which discuss the topic of death from a very objective POV. I'll be sure to share excerpts in my next post (or modify this one if no one posts before then) -- you might find it interesting.
Now, to talk about personal experiences, I have various anecdotes of relatives recently deceased, who have never met one another; I have notes from my own experience; I have notes from my contacts who have done a lot of study in this field. Again, I'm not at home, so unfortunately I can't provide these things to you right away (my apologies for the constant "holding off" - it's not intentional!).
If we were to add religious intonations into the mix (and again, remaining unreligious at the same time), we can add demonic forces into this conversation. Inhuman hauntings are the most dangerous -- and we've agreed that oftentimes they are demonic. [I had a really good point to go with this, but as I'm dead tired the thought has flown out of my head almost completely, lol. I'll put it back in once I've got it again.] However, as you mentioned, religious debates can end in pouting, so we can steer clear of discussing inhuman hauntings altogether.
Its very hard not to add religious intonations to this particular matter, cause afterlife, reincarnation and earthbound spirits are all about that to start with. One without FAITH, which ever that may be, would never even consider believing in such things, less even talk about it. I didnt say the 40 day period is a firm one, i just said i like to stick to it, cause sure, a soul can pass further way sooner and sometimes it cant for this or that reason for a while more. What I said is, was that a HUMAN soul wont stay here without unnatural (meaning ANY possible reason for it, a curse, pain, unfinished business... etc).
When my grandfather died, his soul didnt stay here, but we did get "beyond world" notice of his passing on in form of flickering candle light and unnatural scream that was to be heard at the exact time of his death.
When my cat died, her spirit came to say farewell to me.
When the child i was pregnant with died, it came in my dream to say its ok to live on.
So, I didnt say its not possible to communicate with the dead, I just said that the period "the channel" is open is very short, at least from my experience. Thats why i dont trust ANYONE saying they contacted the "spirit" of... say... Abe Lincoln or Cleopatra. Maybe they did made contact, but the thing with being a channel-medium for those is pretty tricky, cause there is no 100% sure way to be certain its the deceased. Sure, "the spirit" can know stuff only the dead one knew, but then again, all information and energies STAY circulating the planet, so you just might be reading that, and not the dead one itself. Im sorry if i maybe sound incoherent, but english is not my first language and im sure a lot of what i want to say gets a bit lost.
Also, in the last decade, there are numerous people claiming they are "channeling" various extraterrestrial entities, Cassiopeian, Ashtar command and what not. The people that get this "info" would swear with their lives that what they do is true. But on the other side of the coin, there are also various top secret projects of influencing and contacting "subjects" in order to either test new warfare or accomplish something unknown to us ordinary humans.
So, my point would be, if those "subjects" that were played by the gov didnt know it was of devious yet human nature, why do you think anyone else would know that what they channeling is really what it says it is?
and there goes my rant :roll:
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I'll just post the splash out look on my 'religion' from what I know, experience, and heard. THIS is my views and I'm pretty sure I've posted it once before on here but here it goes again:
The Spirits
Angels – These are spirits who surpassed the influences of the Source. They normally end up pure and good. They have a higher place of ‘residence’ that they call the Havens (or Heavens as some people say it). They normally battle against the Source.
Demons – These are spirits who fell pray to the influences of the Source. They normally end up dark and evil. They have a higher place of ‘residence’ that they call the Hollows (or Hell as some people say it). They normally battle alongside the Source.
Imp – This is a spirit of someone who recently died who more than likely will become a demon in a few years or decades.
Guardian – This is a spirit of someone who recently died who more than likely will become an angel in a few years or decades.
Fallen – These are Angels or Demons who don’t follow the pattern of the norm. (IE: an Angel who fights with the source or a Demon who fights against the source)
Arch – These are the highest/oldest Demons or Angels. They normally hail from the 1-10th Haven/Hollows (read further down for more on Havens and Hollows)
Source – The darkness that corrupts all men. They have no human feel to them and normally appear as dark beings. There is no way to differentiate between a Nonlinear being and the Source other than the taste/feel of their energy. I don’t know how to exactly describe it… it is kind of a ‘you have to be there’ ordeal.
Nonlinear – The base before our souls became linear. They have a slight human feel to them and will appear as however they want (anywhere from human, to a cat, to even just a smell or a taste in a room). Their energy is just as wide and fast as the elements and the personalities of the people who walk the Earth.
Eternal – This is where we may begin to offend religious people. These are spirits–no, beings–that are almost equal to that of gods. They cannot die and have a place they can wander on their own without being disturbed. They can relate to energies, elements, or patterns of ‘life’.
Ghost – These are human spirits. Intelligent spirits know they are dead and what’s going on. Residual spirits don’t know what is going on and normally can’t be bothered while on the astral plane; imagine a skipping record but a spirit.
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I feel the need to throw in Realm titles too seeing as they relate to a degree.
The Realms
Havens/Heaven – Holy ‘grounds’ to the spirits. Angels reside here and they (The Havens) are numbered 1-??, 1 being the strongest Angels (Arch Demons).
Hollows/Hell – Damned ‘grounds’ to the spirits. Demons reside here and they (The Hallows) are numbered 1-??, 1 being the strongest Demons (Arch Demons).
Astral Plane – This is where spirits travel together and the middle ground between the Havens or Hollows.
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In the beginning of time, before any idea that our world even existed, there were being that existed called “Ethereal” or “nonlinear” is the more common name. Only soldiers refer to themselves as Ethereal normally. The first ones to exist are now called the “Old One’s”. These original beings are one of the strongest, feral, and selfish beings. Each has a name that influenced the language of man; such as Aroo (Arrow) and Bou (Bow). They came in pairs, their names normally reflecting this. It is said on record that if they were to meet, these pairs, all other beings would be absolute and my suffer execution by their combined might.
The “Old One’s” created a linear planes that could be dubbed the ‘root’ plane of existence. This is where the “Order” (you will read about them later) has their base set up. The creation of other linear planes led to the existence to a wide range of Ethereal. “Old One’s” at this point began to disappear as smaller, weaker beings began to appear. At this time, only three types of nonlinear existed: regular, shifting, and power. Some of the nonlinear settled on a particular plane and became that plane’s first linear beings. For each nonlinear that stayed on a linear plane, their abilities would wither, their unwritten lifespan would shrink, and their memory of the nonlinear world would fade until they knew nothing but the natural instinct to survive and had only one another.
The first ones to come to our linear plane were the shifting nonlinear and the power nonlinear. Over the time we know as years, they became the first animals called dinosaurs and bacteria, as well as the plants and the elements that control our world’s ability to support what is now known as life. They were the first beings to possess souls on this plan, starting a new breed of life. This was how life began for an unknown or constantly changing amount of time.
A disruption in time occurred and caused the peace of the nonlinear in all planes of existence to be disrupted, causing what mankind has titled ‘the death of the dinosaurs’. This caused the nonlinear to become concerned for their later, linear brethren-s’ safety. From what, they knew not but that something was coming. Some of the regular nonlinear settled on the planes, becoming the main inhabitants of the planes. This was the start of evils found in all kinds of beings in existence—those we can see and those we cannot.
The beings that cursed us to have the evils within us (we know as ‘sins’, ‘bad luck’, and ‘bad karma’) are known as ‘Source’. They would come to a linear plane and possess the mind of a being. This being would act in such ways that the normal linear would not recognize. This tainted being would become the first thread of the newly created matter on the plane. This was the start of rivalry, greed, and hatred that would become normal for all organic things to possess within their mind.
The nonlinear found that this could not continue should they wish to live in a state of harmony and peace; thus the creation of the Ethereal Council, or “Order” for short. The Order was composed of the oldest and wises nonlinear that could be found. They would decide what the others were to do. The first army in the history of any and all times was created: The Ethereal Law or The Nonlinear Law. They trained in combat and perfected their skills to one day go to the Source’s leader and stop their trail of chaos. This day has yet to come; for the place of which the Source came from was a rift in time. Even the strongest of Ethereal could not travel there to stop the flow of cursed beings.
The Order launched attack after attack at the Source, causing linear shifts that were unknown to how they happened to the linear beings. They saved who they could with their abilities when they could chance it. These wars carried on and soon lead to the creation of Angels and Demons.
Angels and Demons are not inherently good or evil as many people think. In fact, they are actually linear spirits who had Source interaction in their lives. The genders will change most of the time to fit the appropriate forms for their tasks. Angels were the spirits of the linear beings who had Source contact but did not give into their evil powers. Demons were the spirits of linear beings who had Source contact and died because of them. Philological-ly, Angels and Demons are very similar, retaining much of their human appearance. The alterations caused by Source on a genetic level are similar to those done to the souls who become animal-istic without being a nonlinear. It is believed the Source alterations are not necessarily out of malice, but out of instinct, creating replacement soldiers that Angels and Demons need to thrive. Over time, it became truth that these two races became sort of rivals. One nonlinear told a linear being about this on each plane; starting the belief of otherworldly beings. Yet the Order made these beings sign Accords. This was intended to maintaining balance and protecting the new life forming on their plane and ours.
Ranks of Angels are as follows: Arch Angels (those who assist the nonlinear in combat), Angels (those who have chosen not to take sides), and Saviors (the most loyal of Angels). The Ranks of Demons are as follows: Greater Demons (those who assisted the Source in combat), Demons (those who chose no sides), and Devils (the most loyal of Demons). Both share the class of Fallen (assisting the other force).
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There is MUCH more but this is just... the start if you will.
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But why does a human soul need to have a reason to stick around? It can't simply WANT to stay? I mean, I could have sworn free will was a part of being human. And as to why what my friend communicates with couldn't be anything but human, anything else would have some reason for it. The being she sees and speaks to isn't doing anything other than simple communication and observation, nothing else. What could be accomplished through this? She isn't "learning" anything from it being there, here judgement hasn't changed at all, she is the same person as before.
Anaya, that is very interesting what you've posted. Not saying its going to be my belief now, but it makes sense and (in my opinion) holds ground on its own.
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Not trying to change belief's, just posting the basis of my own :D
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But why does a human soul need to have a reason to stick around? It can't simply WANT to stay?
Cause its not natural way of order
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The natural way of order?I think for any one of us to think we now the natural way of order, we would be assuming way too much. There is no definite way of knowing of how things work around us, and I'm sorry to say that I won't simply accept it as the natural order. Even in thephysical world around us, we know how most things work, andthen something throws us off guard because it fails to follow the order we percieved.
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Well, i see you want to believe what u want to believe, and Im perfectly fine with that. If you wanna believe that what your friend is communicating with is a dead person, and "she is quite fine" still, please, do so. But maybe you and your friend will be very suprised after a while, and i just hope, not hurt as well. Cheers ;)
ps: people that play with Ouija boards and summoning also think its really fine and ok and nothing wrong with it, then get it right in their face
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:/ I use a Ouija board at least once every 3 months for the past year. There IS a safe way to use them and it's called 'the rules'. YOU make the rules when you use the damn thing, and THEY must follow it cause it's YOUR channel of communication.
"We open the board to speak only to peaceful spirits; any spirits who speak to us may not harm any of these members, before, during, or after the communication."
Rules like that. NEVER had issues, NEVER had after effects like... physical or mental harm. s**t people throw down for ouija boards is they aren't using them CORRECTLY. DAMN am I sick of stupid people... I even used one once to speak to a spirits that was in my Mother's backyard that was attacking people (making them drained, unexplained pains, hallucinations, etc) that shouldn't be there cause of the meds my Mom is on. After talking to it through the board and then eliminating it on the spot, the s**t stopped happening at her house. (BTW without her present or knowing!)
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” -MLK Jr.
Now that THAT tangent is over, I have a spirit with me who said he refuses to be born again because he doesn't want to live again. He said living is too painful, and he is rather happy just chillin' around and randomly amusing anyone who is sensitive enough to see/hear him. To say that he isn't human and that he didn't choose to stay here after 120 something odd years from his last death and over 1000 from his FIRST life? I say poppy-cock and moose-balls. He was also double checked via a RULE-LAID ouija board and confirmed with a room full of people. YES you can lay a board for 'no lying'. By the spirits... Not to mention pendulum checks by different people and other mediums got the same answer through different trials with no knowledge of his age.
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See, the thing is, I know nothing bad will come from it. And yes, I know I'm sounding like every annoying person that comes through here pretending to know everything. The truth is, its not the only time someone I know has communicated with a human soul. And while its easier to say that it isn't, to cast doubt, I can honestly say that in these occasions there was nothing to be gained through the imitation of said souls. I over think everything that happens around me, and anything people tell me. I honestly will interpret every possability, because I am the paranoid person that I am. And its fine, I don't expect to make a believer out of you. My intentions arn't to change anyone's opinion here, because either they believe in something and won't change or do of their own accord. But it is smarter not to think one's own beliefs are not the definite truth, to be open to other possibilities. Because there is always going to be something that surprises people, no matter how much they think they know. Heck, there's still things in thephysical world throwing mankind off guard.
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Nina, while I think you have a point about assumptions (e.g. "oh, yeah, my dead friend is fine because she says she is, and she has to be my friend, because she says she is" - which obviously can be twisted), I think you're kind of falling back into the "assumptions" thing yourself by saying how the natural order works.
Again, this is all a personal belief thing, so of course you're welcome to say the very thing :P
I think that what we're lacking is active proof over here, because we're not actually going through that many anecdotes that we can share without relying on, "in my experience," or ,"my friend said..." This goes for me, too, because I'm not really being in the clear about my information. My apologies. If we can get recordings or notes that are able to make some kind of a difference in the way we view things, I feel like that would prevent major arguments.
Just my thought. Obviously, personal beliefs are always going to be supported or disagreed with by various people. This might not even be the answer. :P
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I think that what we're lacking is active proof over here, because we're not actually going through that many anecdotes that we can share without relying on, "in my experience," or ,"my friend said..." This goes for me, too, because I'm not really being in the clear about my information. My apologies. If we can get recordings or notes that are able to make some kind of a difference in the way we view things, I feel like that would prevent major arguments.
Agreed, too little empirical evidence, and answers we can all get so far are deeply based on our religious beliefs ;)
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Yeah, sorry for getting so defensive and some what aggresive. Was in a pretty angry state when I typed that lastpost up. Still, I do agree that we need evidence in this matter.
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Again, I have a few books that I could bring up over here, I just have to look through our library and find them. So my end will have some source documentation for y'all to peruse.
Out of curiosity: what would you all define as a true "ghost," if that's at all possible? Just fodder for discussion. I'm not even sure you can nail a haunting down on any one entity, provided we use what you consider a "ghost" to explain certain occurrences in said hauntings.
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I would define ghost mostly as the soul or spirit of a deceased that makes itself known, be it visualy or through interaction. Though until observations lean towards it being a soul/spirit, I'd just label it as a haunting.
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I find Nina's theory of the fourty day thing for a spirit to hang around prety interesting....and so far as a natural death, I would go so far as to say its probably somewhat acurate. I beleive things arnt as simple as we would like to believe. We dont always experiance the same things when we die. People who died sudenly, tragicly, unexpectedly may tend to hang around a little longer. Those who expected death, knew it was coming....possibly even welcomed it due to a poor quallity of life are able to move on with ease.
BUT what of those who train for it. We all know the black cloke draws near. There are ways to manipulate our aura, chi, what ever you choose to call it. By doing so can we manipulate death itself? Shall we look into the THREE Deaths? or have we already?.....A new subject? Not if you wait for me to bring it up :evil:
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No, I'd say that kind of fits with this topic. Good question. It's possible, indeed; I've seen it done. Not to say the person's immortal at all -- they pushed the boundaries of death for quite a long time. Things just ended up backfiring on him because he was relying on darker works -- the manipulation of negative spirits and souls (those who could not move on, due to extreme and horrible karma, etc.)...yeah.