The Darker Side > Demons, Demonology and The Devil

Are demons a real supernatural event?

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markml0528:
Jake:

In response to what you said about seeking the "truth" - You may have misinterpreted me.  I was just seeking the truth to the answer of one question.  "Do demons, ghosts, and other supernatural occurrences exist?".  I was hoping for a yes or no, along with a short explanation.  In response to your analogy about archaeology, I am interested in having one of the "30%" experiences.  I've done my share of research.  It's not like I have a decades worth or anything though.  I've been interested my entire life.  But only interested.  I didn't put what I would consider "research" in until I was like 16, ever since then it's been a casual hobby to google anything i could think of that was supernatural related.  it's picked up recently, as in the past month, where a significant portion of my free time (although, not all of it :P) is spent researching subjective experiences, possible scientific explanations, etc.  I've also watched my fair share of ghost hunter documentaries, but the majority of my knowledge is from google searches.  The end result is, I'm left very confused.  With Ouija boards, on one hand, you have all the die hard skeptics claiming its all nonsense along with most if not everything else supernatural.  And then on the other, you have a lot of people who are religious saying to NOT mess with them.  Even two close friends of mine warned me and insisted that I not do it because they feared for my safety.  and tthey seemed genuinely scared for my well being.  If advice comes from a random stranger from the internet, there's a significant possibility they're doing it just to scare you or prank you.  But when a close friend advises me the same thing, it holds a lot more weight to it. 

I neither believe nor disbelieve in supernatural things.  I'm open to anything.  I just think that the majority of people have low standards for "proof".  An older lady at my work was explaining to me that science can't explain the miracle of birth.  I told her that it was actually pretty well documented on how people get pregnant, kindly of course.  I then proceeded to explain the sperm and the egg, etc, and asked her if it made sense and she said it didn't and that it could only be god.  We then drifted topics over to how the universe was created, she said it had to start somewhere.  I then proposed, by that logic, where did god come from?  She said he was always there.  I told her, by that reasoning, why can't the universe have always been there? and she replied that it must have started somewhere but she couldn't understand that i was using her own argument against her.  I meet people like this very often, and I'm as polite as possible because I hate offending people and their beliefs so I'm super cautious with my tone and how i word it as to not offend them.  After our talk, she gave me a bible pamplet :P

I want the "facts", as you call them.  I have found zero traces of any conclusive evidence that points to the existence of anything supernatural throughout all my research.  Most of the evidence I've found is anecdotal evidence, which is a notoriously poor way of proposing evidence for the existence of something, unless of course you're the one experiencing the anecdotal evidence yourself.  I, for one, have not.  I've had a few questionable strange experiences, but it's possible i could have missed something that would explain it.  I have never seen anything like a supernatural being as far as I'm aware.  No moving shadows in the night, nothing pulling me out of my bed, no voices in my room, not anything really.  If you have any evidence to show me, please point me in the right direction. 

"Entities need energy" I said this based off of the widespread belief (as far as I can tell at least, feel free to disagree) that in order for a spirit or demon or (insert name here) to manifest, it must obtain energy from something.   A small fraction of electricity could theortically be safely drawn from a person, that amount is about 80 watts of electricity per hour by a sleeping person, more if the person is active and awake.  Some people have said they experienced nausea from a ghostly encounter.  I propose two ideas (assuming demons/ghosts are real), the nausea is either from the shock and fear of what they encountered, or the entity needed a considerable amount of energy (enough for the person to get sick and nauseous) to manifest or throw objects or whatever it wanted to do.  Im leaning towards the first one being true, because I'm leaning towards ghosts and demons not existing and are simply a figment of the imagination of the general public.  Also, a friend of mine named Shea, she said she visited a house with some devil worshipping books as part of her community work with the Salvation Army, they were fixing up a house or something.  The leader of their group came in the room and caught her taking a few peeks at the devil book, and he took it away from her and said its dangerous.  So she went about her business that day and at the very end of the day, when she went out to her car in the parking lot she turned on her car, it cranked up just fine and everything.  But after a few seconds she said the lights got really dim (but not dead) and she looked in the rear view mirror and she said she saw a thing with a black skeleton-like muscular dried out body with black pits of darkness for eyes looking at her.  She said she bolted out of the car.   Key point is, the "entity" in her situation, required the energy of the vehicle to manifest in a physical form to present itself to her.  She thinks the demon followed her that whole day all the way to her car, all because she flipped through a few pages in a devil worshipping book.  I, personally, don't know what she saw.  She seemed genuine in what she described, and I see no incentive for her to fool me.  She's not a prankster.

In response to you saying everybody was crazy.  I couldn't tell if that was sarcasm, or you being serious.  Do you think demons and ghosts and other supernatural entities exist?  Examples such as a demon shadow flying across your ceiling at night, demonic whispers at night, cold hands grabbing you violently at night, etc.  All the classic "haunted" stuff, do you believe that stuff is real or all fake?



Jordyn:

"Thinking by your feelings is the first step, if you've been off the radar so far...staying there is a good idea, sounds like you've got the hard part figured out"

I've been off the radar so far, what do you mean by this?  Us speaking about the paranormal and supernatural, the first thing that comes to mind is that you're warning me to remain hidden from these things and generally mind my own business.  Or do you mean something else entirely?  An explanation would be appreciated.  Also, what did you mean by saying I have the hard parts figured out?  Please be detailed. 

jordyn:
"I've been off the radar so far, what do you mean by this?  Us speaking about the paranormal and supernatural, the first thing that comes to mind is that you're warning me to remain hidden from these things and generally mind my own business.  Or do you mean something else entirely?  An explanation would be appreciated.  Also, what did you mean by saying I have the hard parts figured out?  Please be detailed. "

That's exactly what i'm saying, you're sort of going in reverse of most people, most seem to come across it and when it's a persistant pain in their life they come asking about it, you've got the upper hand looking into them before they look into you.  It's not so much minding your own business, just not going the route of many others that come here in a panic because they're having night terrors, seeing things, friends and family being tortured and fail to accept that dabbling in the occult is what got them there and thinking that route will get them out.

you can believe it or not, i do and i've experienced what they can do to a person, a few still on this board know my story and a search of my threads from the beginning can show the change as i denied them and accepted a healthier interest for my over abundant energy/spiritual attraction.  I'm all about knowledge, just not empowering what you seek, to seek you out.

the hard part is realizing they're constructs of our minds, your doubt about them i'm sure helps and keeping that doubt will assist if you're sincerely interested in finding out for yoursel then more power to you, just don't let them suck you in...there's something out there but no one knows what and it can affect people, even those who don't believe, there's always someone in your life that does.

"Speak of the devil and he'll appear", "be careful what you wish for" and a few other proverbs come to mind when people decide to pursue this curiousity.

you're suspicious, most people pursuing these interests aren't and that's why i stated you have the hard part figured out.

markml0528:
Jordyn

Thank you for your response, it was very detailed and informative.  A few things come to mind though. 

I don't understand how I have some kind of advantage or "upper hand" simply because i have the opportunity to look into them, vs them looking into me first.  I guess I'm asking, what difference would it make? 

In one sentence you said "you can believe it or not, i do and i've experienced what they can do to a person", but in the next paragraph you said "the hard part is realizing they're constructs of our minds".  This seems contradictory.  Is it all in someone's mind?  Is it merely the psychological effect that an eerie environment has on people?  (cemeteries, haunted houses, etc.) 

Also, how would my doubt benefit me?  If I had to guess, I would say it keeps me from jumping to conclusions and assuming that literally every sound I heard at night simply HAD to be of demonic origins.  But that's required in every aspect of science.  You look at all the logical and more likely possibilities, than resorting to "oh it HAD to be demons".  For me, I would have to witness something pretty compelling to become a believer.  I've already said the examples, stuff like seeing a definitive black shadow with red eyes moving across the ceiling would be convincing.  So would a black skeletal figure with red eyes that was breathing fire out its nose, that would also be hard to "explain away". 

The proverbs you referenced, could it be that simply talking about it just puts you on edge and makes you jumpy and start seeing things in the corner of your eye? 

I will go look at some of your first few topics and posts.  EDIT:  Went through about the first 10 pages of your posts, you seemed to believe that all this stuff was real back then.  You speak about certain archetypes, and spells you performed, etc. 

jordyn:

--- Quote ---In one sentence you said "you can believe it or not, i do and i've experienced what they can do to a person", but in the next paragraph you said "the hard part is realizing they're constructs of our minds".  This seems contradictory.  Is it all in someone's mind?  Is it merely the psychological effect that an eerie environment has on people?  (cemeteries, haunted houses, etc.) 
--- End quote ---


I've had many discussions about eregores and such archetypes. It goes back to the source of the human mind, it's id power that discovered fire in caves, had more time to dream and dreamt of gods.  The human mind is capable of producing and even influencing events based on it's visualisation power, generates an energy that can sync with like energies, in it's simpliest description, pure thought manifested by human desire.

We hear a bump in the night, our mind generates energy figuring it out, without an obvious answer the mind takes over, a similiar energy latches on, reaches in through the subconscious mind and the symbiotic relationship of energy begans.  How long have humans been interacting with the natural world and what's the first thing they scriblled on cave walls?  So many dreams, thoughts, cultures, myths, stories and evolution of the mind and knowledge to have shaped energies that go back to knocking three times on wood(to wake the wood spirits for their assistance)to the now growing technomages, manipulating technology based energy to have it do things they want it to...it gets a little too sifi for my thoughts at this point, but more occult based sites have a few that talk about it, gremlins would be their demons.

it benefits you because it shows you don't have a lot of energies around you, if the energy theory is acurate then the more chaos you have to your energy, the more chaos is attracted to you, you have dark thoughts, dark things are attracted, you have happy thoughts...well, that's my personal life and why i do go with the energy flow idea, I'm just tuned into a more from the earth based energy, connected with a greater cosmic energy that's interwoven through all living things. Spirits are basically the same, just not confined to flesh and the physical world...but now we're getting into afterlife discussions and that's a whole different debate, however it also comes down to some  cosmic energy ebb and flow.


--- Quote ---In one sentence you said "you can believe it or not, i do and i've experienced what they can do to a person", but in the next paragraph you said "the hard part is realizing they're constructs of our minds".  This seems contradictory.  Is it all in someone's mind?  Is it merely the psychological effect that an eerie environment has on people?  (cemeteries, haunted houses, etc.) 
--- End quote ---

that would depend on the mind perceiving it, how it processes it and what state it was in, i no longer see such things so i go with mind over matter.


--- Quote ---I will go look at some of your first few topics and posts.  EDIT:  Went through about the first 10 pages of your posts, you seemed to believe that all this stuff was real back then.  You speak about certain archetypes, and spells you performed, etc. 
--- End quote ---

Just using my mind to manifest and manipulate energies that were present in my life whether from nature, spiritual that formed according to my expectation, or...lord only knows what energies i eventually was dealing with, however i shifted my energy needs and discovered more beneficial energies to exist with.  I don't not believe in demons, devils and other evils in the night, i just acknowledge what they are and realized my human mind by all accounts is more powerful than most people want to believe, we literally take other energies and manifest them, some have been manifested thousands of years before any of out were born and are free of any master, that's where the "wicked ones" come from, those ancient thoughts free from human constructs and have become their own, intelligent entities.  Ghosts are human energies trapped in the physical world without a body to interact with it, etc...it can go on and on down to the energy a simple rock on a river shore can have.

i just don't like telling people what to believe, in the end it really has no affect on my life and for any claims some may make, nothing can affect my energy, unless I let it. The human mind has always been my favorite feature of humanity though, so little is still known about it. 

markml0528:
Do you agree with the statement that everything in the universe has a logical and scientific explanation to it?  It's a statement that I believe, many scientists believe, and even more world renowned people such as Carl Sagan believe. 

I do not require "proof" to believe something.  I require credible evidence to decide whether I want to believe a claim someone makes.  It is what any sane, rational minded person would want.  It is how science works, and it has benefited mankind greatly.  No one can assert that they have reliable evidence that prayers, incantations, or spells actually work.  That is not to say that they do not work, it is just to say that no one has presented a credible explanation for how they could possibly work.  With science on the other hand, there are many medicines that can be easily explained and are well documented in how they help treat a person's illness.  With all of that said (and I hope you don't take offense to this, as I mean no offense), I do not believe your ideas about how the human mind can manifest intelligent energies, or that the subconscious mind can create some symbiotic relationship with another energy somehow, etc.  You believe it to be real, but that is through purely subjective experiences.  It seems my only alternative is to experience this stuff subjectively, because every objective approach I have researched comes up VERY short handed with just questionable evidence. 

How can I go about searching whether or not the supernatural is actually real? 

It seems every time I ask the above question, or read about anyone else asking the above question, there is an overwhelming amount of people who say "zOMG, don't do it, it opens a portal to hell and demons follow you....." or something of that nature.  I'm quite confident it's all fake.  All credible scientists I've researched say that the supernatural is all pseudoscience, people trying to make a quick buck off of a ghost tour in new orleans, a reality tv show on discovery channel, or a ghost book they're writing about.  Harry Houdini himself would frequently debunk psychics and mediums as frauds throughout his career.  He never claimed to have supernatural powers, and claimed that anyone who claimed to have them was doing nothing more than a cheap parlor trick.  Not all scientists are egotistical jerks, who are afraid to say "hmm, maybe I was wrong and ghosts and spirits do exist...". 

I think people should have an open mind, raise their standards on what they choose to believe in, and never be too proud to say "maybe i was wrong". 

My position, to clarify, I don't know if supernatural stuff is real.  I'm leaning pretty strongly towards "It's almost definitely not real, but chance remains".  I've never experienced it myself.  If it is real, I would like to know how to find it. 

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