heaven, hell and the pawns in between

[jordyn]

one more try, for an intelligently, rational person. 

what role do we really have besides simple faith in the battle for, us?

i rather like the idea that Gd unable to interfere himself would be apt to choose certain humans to do his fighting, just as i'm sure the other side does to, but what limits if any would they have, would there be requirements for those chosen, perhaps an in depth understanding of evil and a strong sense of goodness?

what sort of qualities would make a good soldier, for either side?

there are numerous movies and stories that come to mind in this situation, the son of satan, born of evil, fighting his father for the good of mankind eventually becoming satan himself and working to keep balance in the world while upholding his "evil" requirements, dark angel, the ascension(full moon moive)...and actual demoness is chosen by Gd to come to earth and do what he can't...protecting the good, destroying the evil doers, finding true love with a good doctor, Alacard of Hellsing...how many saints have been chosen from the depths of sin and debauchery, saved and placed in a position to do so much good for Gd, but then there are those that have the potential to do good, but follow the other side, using their intelligence and resources to push the side of evil.

is it all fiction and fantasy, leaving the battle for heaven and hell in our own dreams or are the minions of satan allowed free reign to recruit for themselves and like Gd did with Lot for Sodom, giving faithful people a chance to save His hopelessly lost "city" and the children that have turned away from goodness?

He sort of stuck himself between a rock and a hard place promising to never again destroy humanity.

[fallen]

I have seen some things while I was involved with the occult. I can not say what is happening on the so called good side. Because I have never been a part of it, but depending on what you truely want to know of the so called evil side. I might be able to help.

  I beleive that god has very little power here on earth at this time. His churches are full of people that have and are to this day destroying the chruch from the inside. He may be able to recruit people to help his cause, but at the same time those who follow the so called devil or satan are recruiting people in vast numbers.

   I beleive there are warriors on both sides and one day their may be a battle that will redefine how we all see the world.

[fallen]

I would also say that god will not intervine. Not because he can not, but because he will not. if you beleive in free will by him getting directly involoved would take away peoples free will.

[jordyn]

I would also say that god will not intervine. Not because he can not, but because he will not. if you beleive in free will by him getting directly involoved would take away peoples free will.

how so?

if He presents them with an opportunity to do something He desires to be done...don't they still have a choice to say no, moses didn't have to lead his people out of egypt, Gd intervened when moses chose to do as he was asked.

what constitutes free will?

[fallen]

How did he intervene. If you mean by moses parting the red sea. I want proof because supposedly at the time it was not higher then a mans knees. That was a different time also who knows maybe moses was a true wizard able to control the elements. I do not beleive in the christian god anymore. I am sorry if my words come across harsh I do not mean them to.

 

[jordyn]

this arguement is not about proof, it's heaven and hell and impossible to prove anything...i don't want to argue if there is a Gd or not, but for this discussion...there has to be some, consideration for the topic.

even for those who do believe in Gd, there are split discussions on heaven, hell, or if there is either place; but the popular idea is that there is a war between heaven and hell for our souls, why wouldn't Gd intervene? it can be done without violating our free will.

demon hunters, for example; there are those who claim to be killing demons for the greater good...how are they capable of doing that without some sort of divine concern, the bible is full of stories with angels acting as messengers for Gd, even exorcists choose to risk their life to expell those who've decided to take an active part in the destruction of humanity, they call on Gd and He gives them the strenghth they need, if the person who's allowed the demons entry, wants to fight.   

i guess i'm looking for a fighting fire with fire discussion, it would makes sense to me, the best way to know an enemy is to understand them; why wouldn't He choose less than perfect humans, that are good in their heart to fight those whose interests are not intended to benefit humanity, would a caring god really leave us all alone, no matter who he or she is, and if so...why?

[jordyn]

How did he intervene. 

He told moses to do so, He helped Aaron cast plagues upon the pharoh, He washed away the pursuing army, He intervened by feeding them and providing them water travelling for days through the desert, He encouraged them when the grew weak in will...read the story.

there's no scientific proof, but that doesn't negate the power of belief, this discussion requires an allowance for the possibility; even if you don't believe, it is a discussion about heaven and hell.

[fallen]

I have read the story before and the bible its self many times. I understand what you are saying. Back to the original question some of us play a role while others think they do, and the rest have no idea what is really going on. Because face it most people are to blind to make their own choices. You also ask would a caring god leave his people alone. I think if you look around the world today the answer is right on tv and in the newspapers. I can already see we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

[Raziel]

a true god might be impartial to all creation. or he could be bored and just wants to let us live freely....... even if it means us screwing up.