Can You Really Survive It All.....

[Wasabi_Richie]

  Here is an even greater thought. Perhaps were just somebody else dream and when they wake up we will no longer exist.....

 Perhaps we are some one else experiment and if we fail to discover this or become intelligence enough to understand this we will just be flushed down the toilet like a dead fish.....

 I do believe that one day we will have the war against machines whether it be sub human, cyborg, or nanobots. do i believe that i will be alive to see it, very doubt full. Would i love to be their and fight in this war of course i do. Who doesn't want to be their and have the honor of fighting to save humanity.....

[KubeSix]

Yet, there's always a way to disprove it, Polaris. You know, there have been tons of theories that try to explain energy manipulation, telekinesis, etc. but they're always missing the point: they don't do anything. They try to prove something that we can do without understanding it. I'll try to explain:

We have to understand how thermodynamics, electricity, mechanical physics and all that to create a machine. That's because we can't build them effectively without knowing. Our current society bases everything it does on such thinking; trying to explain something before using it. Sure, the military has tried making use of psionics, but never really went far with it because they couldn't explain it and so, couldn't prove it. But here's the thing: you don't need to understand how it works to make it work. It's based on your instincts; that's why there are naturals out there who can do it since their early childhood. So why is explaining it a bad thing? It can't be harmful, right? Well yes, it can. If you try to explain something logically, you must consider it logically. If you consider the human brain's powers logically and look at the world around you, think about all the people that could use psionics, yet could never use them effectively, you start thinking "Hey, the brain must have a limit then. We can't go all out and b gods or someone would've done it already." Also, you're taught whether you like it or not all your life that you've got to face the reality society gave you and deal with it. The nature of psionics is to ignore reality, to be insane enough to replace it with your own reality. Illogical, right? Logic tells you you're an animal, a human being, and a mortal. Not a god, a being capable of things that do not need to be explained.

There's this thing about what I just said... If you attempt to prove it, you will unconsciously cause some kind of reaction in the world around you. Affecting radio waves as a side effect of energy manipulation? Yes, well, who's to say the psychic didn't just cause consciously or not, that change in the waves because his logical mind says there should be at least some effect on the physical environment. Since the psychic's credibility is being tested via radio waves, it's only logical it's subconscious will affect those radio waves, yes?

By that experiment it's fairly obvious that your body can mess with them. But to what extent? What about what they can do to your body?

This is what I meant. It's only logical to say "There must be a limit." You can run, but get out of breath, you can jump, but gravity will eventually pull you down, you can get good medicine, but eventually, you'll die. So logically speaking, if you're able to toy with reality, eventually, you'll hit an impenetrable wall.

You're right, having blind faith in others and the mentality of others, to let them guide you and distort you, is not a good thing. But if you have faith only in yourself, in your own way of thinking, your own morals and your own mentality, you are free. Is it really blind faith to believe in yourself and yourself only?

[Raziel]

YOu are all ignoring one thing......


We do not have free will........ or at least not as we have come to know it.

Yes you heard me. We do not have free will.

Stop and think. Why do we behave like we do? Why do we eat, why do we breath? How do we think?....... what shapes our thoughts.

See, from the moment we are born, we see, we feel, we are taught by what we perceive.  We study, we learn by imitation but we do not act without stimulus.

We are  subject to heat, to hardness, to pain, even to that warm fuzzy feeling in our heads and hearts.... we feel happiness.

Lust, love, desire, greed,  ALL chemical  and biological reactions governed by science!

This world is built upon scientific laws, "Everything has some measure of energy!" "Everything exerts force." Energy cannot be created or destroyed" "remain in motion unless acted upon by another force"


Nothing we do is voluntary.  Products of habits and desires, hunger, needs. Even the knowledge in our heads is but neuron buzzing with electric signals arcing through one after another.


Art, expressions of imagination given flesh in stone and paint on canvas. In words on paper by pen. in videos recorded by light on chemicals on film.


Everything is a reaction.


Or is it? What started this? what is the first movent? What caused us? What is this "demi-urge" What was it? was it always there? Did it create time? did it precede it?

Question after question after question...... we are looking for,  We are searching for a universal field theory that can explain everything, that can tell us what we are here for, what we can do really, the limits of matter and math.


What if we are wrong? What if there is really nothing preventing us from shaping reality...... What if all this training, all the stimuli we receive convince us that we are limited...


What if, this demi-urge is still there...... is it infinite? is it an ever flowing river, or was the big bang it?
____________________________________________________________


Even insanity with all its  ability to replace how we view reality is limited by what we know, what we've seen. Twisted as it maybe by neurons misfiring giving us new things ...... Accidents are creation but  is creation an accident?   

For if it is not, then there must be a plan. Then everything would be predictable. from the breath you take now to the wind causing a branch to fall on your cat. It would be predictable.



We say our senses can only perceive  this euclidean universe, that our senses feel, see, smell, taste, and hear.     


But wait. A sound loud enough can shatter bones, a smell strong enough can blind your eyes and burn your tongue, ears sensitive enough can give you a form of sight..... when does one cross over into another form.



When we eat lots garlic, we soon grow sensitive to its absence in our food. When we've never had legs we wouldn't know how to walk.


We as a species use what we have to compensate. Stones for claws, we take fur, and meat to sustain ourselves.


This world, this universe is ruled by trade.

_________________________________________-

Godhood is possible, We have people who shrug off bullets, legends of strength and power. martial artists who's limbs are harder than stone and iron. Monks whos skin cannot be pierced by spears.

All these things have one thing in common. Belief.

These days, we have all these new age, think positively crap, We know that rituals are not exactly important in casting spells per say, but are valuable as psychological aids, The use of mirrors, Sprigs of garlic and thyme, Religious images and imaging.

These things take the place of true physical objects, a knife through a picture, a pin through a doll. Why can't these effects be explained, why do they sometimes work and why do they fail? Is there a way to quantify a person's belief? How does it affect reality?

Quantum theory, math, metaphysics? All the things we use to explain the nature of this place. 


We were born fighting, but did we ever have a choice?


To build machines that would fight us and kill us, Do we have a choice?

To place our minds in their bodies, is this a choice?

What is a machine?

machine   

ma·chine [mə shn]
noun (plural ma·chines)
1.  mechanical device: a device with moving parts, often powered by electricity, used to perform a task, especially one that would otherwise be done by hand
a washing machine

2.  simple unpowered device: a simple device used to overcome resistance at one point by applying force at another point, e.g. a lever, pulley, or an inclined plane
3.  powered form of transportation: an engine-driven means of transportation, e.g. an aircraft, car, or motorcycle
4.  group of people in control: an organized group of people that controls or directs something, especially a political group
the party machine

5.  complex system: a complex system structured so as to accomplish a particular goal
the war machine

6.  somebody who behaves mechanically: somebody who is regarded as behaving like a mechanical device, e.g. somebody who is efficient but uncreative
men trained as deadly machines

7.  theater device to produce stage effects: a mechanical device used in the theater, especially in classical drama, to create special effects such as the entrance of a supernatural being
8.  literature literary device: a character or factor introduced into a work of literature to produce an effect or to resolve the plot


verb (past and past participle ma·chined, present participle ma·chin·ing, 3rd person present singular ma·chines)
1.  transitive and intransitive verb work with power-driven tool: to cut, shape, or finish a piece of work using a power-driven tool such as a lathe or drilling device, or be cut, shaped, or finished in this way
2.  transitive verb use machine on something: to make or do something using a machine


[Mid-16th century. Via French < Latin machina "device" < Greek mēkhanē < mēkhos "means"]


-ma·chin·a·ble [mə shnəb'l], adjective 

Microsoft® Encarta® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


When we think about it..... zombies are machines too right?   They exist to eat, they exist for brains.

Desire without will personified.    Golems of rotting flesh.


Where does sentience and machine blur?

With us of course.

We are aware we are here. We are aware that we are,  We are aware that we choose what we choose.


But are we limited in what we can choose, really? can we like viruses rewrite our source code to adapt, to gain abilities that we shouldn't have? Super speed. telekenisis?



Meh, i need a drink. 

[KubeSix]

Raz, that is one long post

One that made me think, though. The question is: what is free will? Is it that we can freely obey or disobey our human nature? You say we are limited by what we've seen and experienced, but is that really affecting our free will? It's only limiting our imagination and knowledge, but we are still free to decide what we will do with what is left of them. Or is everything an instinctive reaction? Can every action be predicted? Well first, Heisenberg whips out his uncertainty principle and says no. Then, the Matrix comes to mind. You know in the third movie when Neo is in the Architect's room? There are TV screens and at one point every TV screen shows him doing something different. Those are all the possible actions he could've taken, given his current situation, knowledge, experience, etc. In short, he had an infinity of choices, yet in the end, only chose one. Sure, he wasn't free to choose them all, but he was free to choose any one of them. Yes, I know I'm basing this on a work of fiction, but it's just an analogy.

Demiurge... Demiurge is the being that is born when Wisdom is born without Will according to Gnostic beliefs; a being that should never have existed. Does it mean free will is achieved through wisdom? Quite possibly.

But wait. A sound loud enough can shatter bones, a smell strong enough can blind your eyes and burn your tongue, ears sensitive enough can give you a form of sight..... when does one cross over into another form.

It's called synesthesia. It doesn't need to reach a certain point or climax; it happens when the brain interprets stimuli in creative ways. Hearing colors and seeing sounds are a good example. Some synesthetes actually see sounds. It doesn't really relate, I just wanted to say that

So. Are we limited in our actions or do we have complete free reign over them? Well if you put the same person twice in the same situation exactly, they might react in two different ways because we can't say we are certain that they have a 100% chance of always acting the same.

A theory of quantum physics called quantum immortality says this: Every choice we make and every event guided by probability divides our universe. If I choose to write these words, a second me in a second universe decided not to write them, while an infinity of others have decided to write different words. If you use a mechanism that has a 50% chance of killing you, whatever you do, as much as you use it, you will always survive, because when you die in one universe, a second one appears where it hit the other 50% and you didn't die. That's quantum suicide, the concept that when you die via probabilities (And since you can never be 100% sure of something, every "death" is a probability) you don't even realize it, because your consciousness remains in the reality where you didn't die. I might decide to go get myself a glass of water right now, but in another universe, I decided not to and in another one, I got up and grabbed a soft drink instead.

So are our actions based on probability? Maybe. But we still decide which path to choose, even if it is more probable that we choose one, we may still choose to take the other path.

[Polaris]

I The world around you is just an illusion. It's just a reality you and all other living beings have created with their minds, built on what the ones before them did. If it's in your head, you can control it.

Still need to practice, though

You said this once KubeSix, I reckon that's a pretty logical conclusion to come too even if it's based on personal beliefs.

But here's the thing: you don't need to understand how it works to make it work.

You may not need to understand how it works in order to make it work however to use a analogy;

If you spoil a friendship, is it easier to fix it if you understand what you did wrong and what needs to be achieved in order to rectify your mistake?

Not too mention, knowing that it is plausible, makes people realise that they can do it. It gives them faith.

The nature of psionics is to ignore reality, to be insane enough to replace it with your own reality. Illogical, right?

Not necessarily, if my information is correct and there are 3 main energy types in the universe then it is only logical that psionics uses a combination of energy different to that which we know as matter/the corporeal realm. This would mean it doesn't have a 'physical' body and interestingly enough, it seems the force used in psionics doesn't!

You're right, having blind faith in others and the mentality of others, to let them guide you and distort you, is not a good thing. But if you have faith only in yourself, in your own way of thinking, your own morals and your own mentality, you are free. Is it really blind faith to believe in yourself and yourself only?

I believe that blind faith is just that, blind to everything but your own faith and that no matter what form it comes in it will cause more harm than good. Freedom isn't closing your eyes and believing. A personal belief though, to each their own.

-------------------------------

And it's so strange when you think about the creation of the universe because the first thought you get, something older and more powerful must have done it and it just keeps on going further and further and further back.

As for free will, it's seems kind of ridiculous that 'our creator' would give us the power to do whatever we wanted whenever we wanted. Sure, nowadays there's a few possible repercussions but in general it's the same deal. It's seems more likely that (to use an analogy) we can take whatever path, means of transport, side trips etc that we like as long as we end up at the same destination.

[Raziel]

No, i meant demi-urge as initial action. the first creation. what was molded into everything here.  If it exists then everything is made up of it.  And it might not be energy because we don't know if energy is infinite. Is there infinity in this universe or what?

Looking for an infinite God in a finite matter universe is kinda hard. maybe he's not here. And this universe is a trickle down reaction of infinity manifesting itself in order, cause pure infinity would be chaos.

[KubeSix]

I The world around you is just an illusion. It's just a reality you and all other living beings have created with their minds, built on what the ones before them did. If it's in your head, you can control it.

Still need to practice, though

You said this once KubeSix, I reckon that's a pretty logical conclusion to come too even if it's based on personal beliefs.

Personal beliefs? I'm not sure what you're talking about. That was a theory; a supposition. I'm not sure which part of that quote you're talking about, but let me say this: is our mind so limited that in order to think illogically in one instant, we must always think illogically? Sure, when I moved an object for the first time, I thew away all I knew about the world, because our current understanding of it makes telekinesis impossible. But it was a small object. Believe me, I'm well aware that you don't really need to train; I'm well aware that everyone has the power to do much more, but your subconscious doesn't and it's a generally accepted concept in the psionic community that you hve to train your mind.

Now, though, I got results where people spend weeks, months or even years with nothing on my first try because I knew deep down that it was all in my head and could do it without training. But try telling that to someone who doesn't believe this. They'd much rather be told "You have to train hard for years." rather than "Make believe." It was an article I wrote so that if someone interested found it they could have a guideline of sorts, but anyone who believes like me that it doesn't really matter will know to ignore what is unnecessary. Truth is, most people can't do that and need to be given an easy way. The "I'm a god." way is the hard way; it would take crazy willpower to achieve such things and most people don't have such willpower.

But here's the thing: you don't need to understand how it works to make it work.

You may not need to understand how it works in order to make it work however to use a analogy;

If you spoil a friendship, is it easier to fix it if you understand what you did wrong and what needs to be achieved in order to rectify your mistake?

Not too mention, knowing that it is plausible, makes people realise that they can do it. It gives them faith.

Maybe. Maybe not. You're probably right on that one, but I'm not the type to have faith in anything other than myself. I have enough of it to do it without understanding it; having to explain things like this only seems like putting up mental blocks to me.

The nature of psionics is to ignore reality, to be insane enough to replace it with your own reality. Illogical, right?

Not necessarily, if my information is correct and there are 3 main energy types in the universe then it is only logical that psionics uses a combination of energy different to that which we know as matter/the corporeal realm. This would mean it doesn't have a 'physical' body and interestingly enough, it seems the force used in psionics doesn't!

3 main energies, one energy, nobody knows and most likely nobody ever will. Most psions agree that they manipulate "psi", a metaphysical energy. But some oriental arts use the term "qi". Are they really different? Probably not. One is in your body, the other is outside, but does that even matter? Energy is energy and can be freely transferred from one type to another, metaphysical or not. I try to stick with a more simplistic approach. "I manipulate the world around me." A more in-depth explanation isn't always needed.

You're right, having blind faith in others and the mentality of others, to let them guide you and distort you, is not a good thing. But if you have faith only in yourself, in your own way of thinking, your own morals and your own mentality, you are free. Is it really blind faith to believe in yourself and yourself only?

I believe that blind faith is just that, blind to everything but your own faith and that no matter what form it comes in it will cause more harm than good. Freedom isn't closing your eyes and believing. A personal belief though, to each their own.

Believing in yourself and yourself only is closing your eyes? I know only of a few who observe the world beyond their own opinions as I do. Is it blind faith to believe in your own potential yet to understand the world through other perspectives?

It's simple minded to think having faith in only your own potential makes you blind.

But maybe it is a harmful way of thinking. I gave up on believing in my family's religion and gave up on believing there's much hope for this world. Pessimistic? Only if I stop believing in myself. Sure, it makes you disrespect authority and lose all kind of social morality and it's harmful for society. But if you don't feel guilt or shame, that doesn't really matter.

What I'm trying to say is: it might be harmful and I know it is. But I honestly don't give a fark.

And it's so strange when you think about the creation of the universe because the first thought you get, something older and more powerful must have done it and it just keeps on going further and further and further back.

As for free will, it's seems kind of ridiculous that 'our creator' would give us the power to do whatever we wanted whenever we wanted. Sure, nowadays there's a few possible repercussions but in general it's the same deal. It's seems more likely that (to use an analogy) we can take whatever path, means of transport, side trips etc that we like as long as we end up at the same destination.

That's assuming we do have a creator. Christianity has this belief that we humans were the only ones given free will, yet it also has the belief that God has already laid out the future.

So we can do whatever we want, but we'll always end up the same? Maybe, if we let ourselves be governed by that 'creator'. But the story is more important than the end, Polaris. The destiny of every mortal being is to die. What we do before that is what matters. But is destiny really so intangible? I don't think so. All must come to an end, yes, but you may push it back further as much as you want, if only you were to know how. To be honest, I don't want to escape that destiny. I wish to die someday, but if I can make that only happen long after I should've died, why not? Sure, I'll grow tired to life, because all my ambitions will have been fulfilled, but if I have no ambition, then death doesn't seem like such a bad thing.

But destiny and free will don't cancel each other out. Even though we have a single possible end, we can do whatever we wish before that end arrives, right?

[Muerte]

Dude, EMP is only viable as long as we use computers that are exclusively electricity users, bio or mechanical computers, and eventually quantum computers wouldn't be nessesarilly vulnerable to such a weapon.

Hence, we could get quantum brains and live like gods by manipulating reality via tugging on metaphysical "strings".

Time would cease to matter, as we will be able to bypass it because of extra dimensional manipulation.


Nanobots are boring, gimme god mode!

  I believe the question was what would "you do".  Since Quantum brains are something I will never live to see, but the possibility of AI controlled machines are a distinct possibility, I stand by my decision.  As for the shielding, well, in my job I know exactly what it takes to shield against EMP, and I can also tell you it is not something that every machine will have (the daily maintenance is hell to deal with, and that's on s**t that does not move)

[Raziel]

But it will make them harder to hit with emp bursts yes? 

Thus if they shield thier primary assets, they will be that much harder to take down.

[KubeSix]

@Polaris: I think we should follow Muerte's lead and get

Dude, EMP is only viable as long as we use computers that are exclusively electricity users, bio or mechanical computers, and eventually quantum computers wouldn't be nessesarilly vulnerable to such a weapon.

Hence, we could get quantum brains and live like gods by manipulating reality via tugging on metaphysical "strings".

Time would cease to matter, as we will be able to bypass it because of extra dimensional manipulation.


Nanobots are boring, gimme god mode!

  I believe the question was what would "you do".  Since Quantum brains are something I will never live to see, but the possibility of AI controlled machines are a distinct possibility, I stand by my decision.  As for the shielding, well, in my job I know exactly what it takes to shield against EMP, and I can also tell you it is not something that every machine will have (the daily maintenance is hell to deal with, and that's on s**t that does not move)

After giving it some thought, I noticed something: computers nowadays might not have the same processing power as the human brain, but some supercomputers do and if they haven't already, they'll soon surpass it. (An article written in 2002 about IBM building such a computer by 2004.)

th[/sup]2002]It is hard to quantify the power of a brain, but when you look at the raw processing power of these machines, you're looking at figures in the same ballpark.

Since then, Oak Ridge National Laboratory's built a supercomputer surpassing the one IBM built a few years ago now. (Wikipedia, because I'm lazy.)

So let's say this human vs. AI war happens in fifty years. By then, with technology advancing at an almost exponential rate in our times, we'll all own computers that surpass our own processing power and supercomputers that would control the whole "AI army" would have power we can only begin to imagine. So even if the EMP shielding technology takes time and effort to maintain, a computer like that would be able to do it much more efficiently than a human brain. (And girls will no longer brag about their multitasking skills.)

It would be a flawed defensive system if they were regular computers, but let's remember they're sentient now.

Just my two cents.

[Muerte]

But it will make them harder to hit with emp bursts yes? 

Thus if they shield thier primary assets, they will be that much harder to take down.

  If the Primary assets were protected than yes, but tell me how do you send the information from your primary controls to the secondary ones? (From the computer to the mechanical).  To be effective all must be shielded, this means not even your wires are allowed to protrude from the Primary systems.  (There is a possible way, but lets see if you come up with it on your own)

  Also the weight of the shielding would make the unit unwieldy and slow.  Take away mobility and stealth and you loose the edge.

[Raziel]

Assuming we're talking about a bunch of constantly evolving super bots. they'd eventually make quantum computers and thus be able to "teleport" data to each other instantaneously.

Emp wouldn't get into their shielding. and we'd be too far technologically behind to stop them.

We'd be screwed.

[KubeSix]

A war against an army of gods... DOES NOT SOUND GOOD! Unless we turn our own brains into such quantum computers. Than we'd be on equal ground, but we'd be sacrificing part of our humanity to save what's left of it. (Well at least those fighting the war would lose their humanity. They'd sacrifice themselves to fight for the rest.)

[Muerte]

Assuming we're talking about a bunch of constantly evolving super bots. they'd eventually make quantum computers and thus be able to "teleport" data to each other instantaneously.

Emp wouldn't get into their shielding. and we'd be too far technologically behind to stop them.

We'd be screwed.

  Not talking about what ifs, I am talking about what we currently have.  As I have said, I am not worried about the computer of tomarrow until it becomes the problem of today.

[Raziel]

Right now? AI's arn't sophisticated enough to fight us and win. They can't even win against a decent coffee machine.
Have you tried the expresso? its calorifically caffinariffic!