dragons

[slayer]

People of montrous  i have been asked a question which is intresting does any one know of spells to summon or make a pact with a  dragon.

[Morticia]

Hi,

If you don't mind my asking, why do you want to make a pact with a dragon?

I'm Christian, and I think that dragons have to do with satan.  Of course that's just my opinion, but I strongly believe it. 

~Morticia

[slayer]

and what evidence do you have to back up your opion what mmakes you belive that.

[Phantom X]

This site is excellent for dragon spells.

http://www.geocities.com/Jkarrah/index.html

I would also like to hear Morticias reasoning behind it.

[Morticia]

Revelation 12:7

"And there was war in heaven.  Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.  But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down - that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray.  He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."
******************

Revelation 12:2-4

"The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.  One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.  The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.  Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast?  Who can make war against him?"
******************

Revelation 20:1-3

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.  He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.  He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him fron deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.  After that, he must be set free for a short time."

******************

When I was in the process of renouncing witchcraft, I had several dreams and visions that had me very confused.  I went into a trance to connect with 'someone' I knew was trying to contact me.  I believe I saw satan.  He looks like a dragon.  And that trance was BEFORE I read Revelation, so I had no idea how he would look.

This is simply my opinion - I'm not trying to force anyone to believe as I do.  But I do believe is very strongly.

~Morticia

[Phantom X]

I think those refer to Satan in the form of a dragon, but I think slayer is talking about Wiccan Elemental Dragons.

[Morticia]

I know.

I believe they are one and the same.

How better could satan creep into a person's life than by pretending to be harmless?  Witches and wiccans don't believe he exists.  That would be like me saying I don't believe in the AIDS virus.  It's still there and it's still a threat, whether or not I choose to acknowledge its existence.

Wicca is presented as a harmless earth-based religion.  I found it to be devil worship in disguise.  The more I learned, the darker it got.

When I saw satan I knew I had been fooled beyond all belief.  The good thing was that I had also been educated about him and know his weak points. 

~Morticia

[Devious Viper]

The use of the dragon is purely symbolic. "Satan" is an angel, albeit fallen, a higher order of creation than Man; he appears as a perfect, beautiful being, and has none of the reptile in him.

Many Scriptural references to "dragons" result from an error in translation of the Hebrew "tan", which means "jackal" but it was taken to refer to a giant water-serpent, as a consequence of its relation to the name Tanith, a pagan goddess. Furthermore, the Bible as we know it now is very heavily influenced by Hellenistic-Greek philosophy.
Throughout the Hellenistic world, snakes and dragons were common as pagan symbols, as representative of the immortals and sexual union with the gods. Greece, (along with Western Asia, Egypt and India) was rife with myths of dragon combat, and dragons/serpents were frequently associated with water, such as the she-dragon or drakaina slain by Apollo, or Vritra, who encircled the waters of chaos. Also there were  the snakes of Medusa's hair, or the serpent who was a symbol of the cults of Asklepios and Isis.

Whenever there is mention of a dragon or serpent in the Bible, it is wise to assume it to be a symbolic reference, then check the original text, and also keep in mind the mythos of the age/culture in which it was translated/written. The dragon is endowed with heavy metaphysical imagery throughout the Bible, most of which stems from pre-existing mythology. This is not to discount the validity of the texts - it was a well-placed adaptation of symbols existing at that time, many of which live on today.

[Phantom X]

Thanks DV 

Anyways, how can you say that Wiccans are evil? They believe and use the power of nature and dont have any spells that even remotly harm someone, and if a coven or group does then they are not Wiccan.

[Morticia]

Dear Phantom,

I didn't mean to offend anyone - please re-read what I said.

Wiccans are definitely NOT evil.  I do happen to believe that they are being used by satan and don't even know it. 

I can't recall one single witch I ever knew, myself included, who did a spell trying to cause harm to anyone.  I meant well, but I was duped.

There was no power coming from the earth to me.   It was all from satan.   

Also, I personally believe him to be reptilian and ugly.  He can appear as an 'angel of light' when he chooses, confusing people, but the one I saw had a shape somewhat like a giant lizard, brownish-green, with tough woodlike scales.  It had extremely long fingers and nails.  I didn't look directly into it's face.

I had been taught  about the power of the Blood of Christ Jesus, and when I used those words, the creature simply screamed and dissolved.

It doesn't really matter how educated someone is regarding this matter, it's difficult for me to ignore a personal experience.

Best wishes,
~Morticia

[Phantom X]

Ack, I took what you said out of context. Im sorry, rough day at school about pagans and wiccans, ironically. But another question to you, Satan is PORTRAID evil, but does that mean that he is? There is only one side of the story and, so far, the only one. Everybody thinks they are doing good when they arent and its never fair to believe one side. Whos to say that Satan didnt have better intentions that God himself?

[Devious Viper]

I can't recall one single witch I ever knew, myself included, who did a spell trying to cause harm to anyone.

I know someone who called on Leviathan to assist in a revenge type thing, out of anger and jealousy.   From the results, Leviathan can be a nasty bugger.

It doesn't really matter how educated someone is regarding this matter, it's difficult for me to ignore a personal experience.

Without educated, rational and objective study, all you are left with is superstition. Is that how you would define your religion?

And although people often cite 'personal experience' as evidence for their beliefs, the field of philosophy remains generally  unconvinced that such experiences (at least, of the sort discussed in this post) provide independent epistemic warrant at all. If theistic beliefs are presupposed (and your Western upbringing would ensure exposure to countless stereotypes, myths, legends and symbols) then such experiences will no doubt reinforce them; much as a coincidental link between an event and a horoscope reading will reinforce the New-Ager's belief in astrology. But given the alternative explanations provided by rational, educated study, it would be a mistake to take the apparent 'evidence' at face value.

[Morticia]

I can't recall one single witch I ever knew, myself included, who did a spell trying to cause harm to anyone.

I know someone who called on Leviathan to assist in a revenge type thing, out of anger and jealousy.   From the results, Leviathan can be a nasty bugger.

It doesn't really matter how educated someone is regarding this matter, it's difficult for me to ignore a personal experience.

Without educated, rational and objective study, all you are left with is superstition. Is that how you would define your religion?

And although people often cite 'personal experience' as evidence for their beliefs, the field of philosophy remains generally  unconvinced that such experiences (at least, of the sort discussed in this post) provide independent epistemic warrant at all. If theistic beliefs are presupposed (and your Western upbringing would ensure exposure to countless stereotypes, myths, legends and symbols) then such experiences will no doubt reinforce them; much as a coincidental link between an event and a horoscope reading will reinforce the New-Ager's belief in astrology. But given the alternative explanations provided by rational, educated study, it would be a mistake to take the apparent 'evidence' at face value.

I keep forgetting that to post at Monstrous is a bit like being on a witness stand with  attorneys and a judge probing every word, making me feel as if I have to clarify every single statement I make.

I stand behind my statement that I never knew anyone AT THE TIME I WAS PRACTICING witchcraft who had evil intentions.   Never.

The person who attempted to summon Leviathan was  someone I met two years later.  He shared the story of his past experience with me.

You apparently have nothing better to do than to sit at your computer comparing my posts and looking for something that might be a minor inconsistency.   Why?

As for calling my religion 'superstition', would you say the same about Moses's faith?  Joshua's?  I wasn't  aware that the people God used as servants had gone to seminary for 'educated, rational and objective study.' 


~Morticia

[Phantom X]

~This is Phantoms reminder to remain civil when you are posting, I can already see where this is going~

[Devious Viper]

You apparently have nothing better to do than to sit at your computer comparing my posts and looking for something that might be a minor inconsistency

The  one occasion when I have questioned the consistency hardly qualifies your accusation. How you experience this act is clearly at odds with reality. Furthermore, I am arguing with your posts, not you as a person. Why do you have to resort to ad hominem argument?

As for calling my religion 'superstition', would you say the same about Moses's faith?  Joshua's? I wasn't  aware that the people God used as servants had gone to seminary for 'educated, rational and objective study.' 

I didn't call your religion superstition – I asked if that is how you would define it.
Moses – So-called "Man of the true God", leader of the nation of Israel, mediator of the Law covenant, prophet, judge, commander, historian and writer...As a member of the Pharoah's household, he was "instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians", becoming "mighty in his words and deeds." When he set off for Midian, God decreed he was not yet qualified to serve, and he had to undergo a further 40 years of training, in order for him to be the fitting one to lead God's people.  Moses was the learned author of the Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy); he is also credited with the book of Job, Psalm 90 and Psalm 91.

Joshua, son of Nun,the Ephraimite who was handpicked by Moses to be his "right hand man",  his senior attendant, and so was taught all that Moses knew.

I'd say that neither of them are particularly good examples to use to illustrate your point...

Moreover, I did not say that God's chosen servants had to be educated – I merely stated that correct exegesis of the Bible is required in order to appreciate the vast depth of symbolism which graces its pages.  "...Our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures..." (2 Peter 3:14-16)

Many of the prophetic truths of the Bible have been expressed through careful use of symbols – the book of Daniel, for example, packed with images and animals, some real, some fantastical, some explained, some left unexplained. Some symbols have  been used , not to make the meaning clearer, but to deliberately conceal the message until God reveals their meaning at or near the time of the end.  Many attempt to interpret these symbols according to their own ideas – or personal experiences – resulting in chaos and confusion. Biblical symbols must be carefully interpreted within the context of the Bible as a whole, and within the immediate context of when and where they were written down. Purely subjective interpretations are of no value whatsoever. The Bible stands as an inspired body of unifying and related instructions and history, interwoven with symbolic illustrations.

My final point on why "personal experience" makes for sloppy, lazy or just plain wrong, interpretation:

"Whether it brings the voices of heaven  or of hell, it causes what must surely be the worst affliction a sentient, conscious being can suffer: the inability to tell what is real from what is imaginary. To the person with schizophrenia the voices and visions sound and look as authentic as the announcer on the radio and the furniture in the room.
In paranoid schizophrenia, the patient becomes convinced of beliefs at odds with reality, hears voices that aren't there or see images that exist nowhere but in his mind. ...The voices the patients heard were therefore as real to them as the conversations in the hallways they passed through en route to the lab... Yates*, who has a deeply religious background, had satanic hallucinations.  ...The seeming authenticity of the voices means that people with schizophrenia can be barraged by commands that, they are convinced, come from God or Satan. That inference is not illogical; who else can speak to you, unseen, from inside your mind?"

(Newsweek, March 11, 2002, p. 46)

*Andrea Yates of Texas drowned her five children because "God told her to."