[jordyn]

i'll be the first one to pick the bones...there have been some interesting statements made, and i'd like to address them, from a less, selfish magickal point of view...

"Thats not true at all. I have control over where my life goes. I have control to say 'Today there will be sun, tomorrow there will be rain.' I am a mage. The world is our playground, regardless of what others say."

as a fellow practicioner of the arts, this concerns me...it seems you are seperating yourself from the world, placing yourself above the very things that make the impossible possible.

what if another person decides they want it to rain, when you want the sun?  Does it become a power struggle as to who has the most desire or the source that they derive their power from, who has the power to decree to nature what she can or can not do?

where does a mage derive his power from?

as a witch, i draw what i need from the earth, shape it with my mind, and set if free to do as i desire...trusting in that energy i shaped to bring to me what would be best, when my life is prepared to receive it...it's like a person wanting that absolute love, yet unable to understand the sacrifices required to keep it harmonious and sustaining...it's a wasted gift, like a blind person being given a dali print.

the essences, the energies, the subtle, incorporal sentineces that live in and around, creating the four elements...deserve some consideration, look at the world today, too see where the mindset of power without limitations creates.

that is evil...no matter who chooses to destroy or control that which they have no rights to destroy or control, forcing their will onto another, is just morally wrong...one doesn't need the bible, a clear definition of good and evil or an almighty god to distinguish what's right and wrong; living with others, observing and learning from the greater world should bestow that upon them.

this view concerns me that one who claims magick as their, power...can easily disregard such basic tenents as respect and consideration for other forms of sentiences that watched as developing homosapiens climbed into caves and emerged, inspired with everything that makes us human, allowing us to name and harness these, unknown energies, shaping them to what we can understand...and work with.

 to place yourself on top of the spiritual heap, declaring absolute control, referring to everything as a playground?

...as much as i detest applying terms like good an evil to magick, i have to agree this is a pretty evil ideal, and it can only backfire...

what happens when that one energy that's more experienced, more favored and more respected for their relation to these energies does come along and put simple humans with delusions of power over the natural and unseen worlds, in their place?

what happens when a person walks up with a gun and shoots, can magick really stop that bullet...would you be willing to test the theory?

 there's always bigger fish, they are not necessarily human...or  even have an ability to comprehend the frailities of physical existance...magick with no respect for other existances or, practical reality only exasperates; destruction, unstructured chaos, and the startling, even painful realization how low on the totem pole humans really are in the grand scheme of things...we may have more intelligence than animals, but are we really better off?

i'm not saying there's any bibical god form, angels or any other, book based good versus evil battle.  archaic, outmolded ideals of good and evil, do not apply to my life...but everyone designs their own versions of these, archetypes...to completely dismiss human rationalization, basic tenents of existance and a realization of life that should seperate us from simple beasts as not being applicable to humanity?

i firmly believe in evolution, that nature is the reason we are alive, pretending we are greater than anything in existance, because we have a brain with consciousness...

so many are denying the ingrained relationship we have to nature, i blame that for all the nastiness in this world...it's  these mindsets that are destroying what was once a balance between the natural, human and inhuman...anyone aware of the problems in the world, can easily see the result of power without responsibility and inconsideration of others, basic rights to life.

magick without realization of external factors only destroys and stagnates growth...nothing beneficial can come from it, magick should be used to make a person wiser and understanding; not ignorant and uncaring.

ignorance is the ultimate evil, and the world we live in now, is the result, it's sad that there are magicians that still perpetuate the cliche ideals of good and evil that so many other practicioners have struggled to dispel, desiring to be seen as a force of benelovence, rather than a source of maleovance, as the bible religions have designated them to be...

why perpetuate the myth of evil by demonstrating it so absolutely?

[Phantom X]

as a fellow practicioner of the arts, this concerns me...it seems you are seperating yourself from the world, placing yourself above the very things that make the impossible possible.

I placed myself above humans in a ranting form, however, I have worked hard to fine tune my gift and have the right to say I am better, but always place Nature above me. I have told Seeker many of times how I feel if Nature gets upset with me doing something and no longer push the subject.

what if another person decides they want it to rain, when you want the sun?  Does it become a power struggle as to who has the most desire or the source that they derive their power from, who has the power to decree to nature what she can or can not do?

As I said before, I follow Nature and do what it allows me to do. Yesterday I wanted rain to drop the temp in my area. I tried and Nature was displeased, so I stopped. An hour or so later rain came in and lowered the temp drastically. That was Natures way of rewarding me for what I had done.

where does a mage derive his power from?

A mage derives their power from their imagination and their mindset. I believe, with my heart and soul, that I can control the weather. I use my imagination to see the weather condition I like, then it comes true. Sorta like Projection.

that is evil...no matter who chooses to destroy or control that which they have no rights to destroy or control, forcing their will onto another, is just morally wrong.

First of all, I have a right to control where my life goes and not God nor anyone else can tell me where to go. I have the right to be here. Period.

Second, I do not force my will onto others. I have been given a gift to shape the world to how I believe. If its wrong, it shouldnt exist.

this view concerns me that one who claims magick as their, power...can easily disregard such basic tenents as respect and consideration for other forms of sentiences that watched as developing homosapiens climbed into caves and emerged, inspired with everything that makes us human, allowing us to name and harness these, unknown energies, shaping them to what we can understand...and work with.

Everyones magick views are diffrent. I believe that we can merely call the name of a God to tap the powers that its been holding for centuries. If I ask Apollo to protect me, the energies of all the people whom prayed and sacrifice will come and protect me. If I truly needed him, he will come because my energies are now in him as well.

to place yourself on top of the spiritual heap, declaring absolute control, referring to everything as a playground?

'The world is my playground' is just an expression. It means the world is what you make of it.

what happens when that one energy that's more experienced, more favored and more respected for their relation to these energies does come along and put simple humans with delusions of power over the natural and unseen worlds, in their place?

what happens when a person walks up with a gun and shoots, can magick really stop that bullet...would you be willing to test the theory?

To simply wrap up the results of all that, I die. I am willing to die to be the strongest I need to be, even if that means taking on something with more power than I. Maybe its my football instinct or my ignorance, either may it probably will be the end of me.

magick without realization of external factors only destroys and stagnates growth...nothing beneficial can come from it, magick should be used to make a person wiser and understanding; not ignorant and uncaring.

I realize the external factors and they acknowlegde me. I am wiser and more understanding and have never been ignortant or uncaring towards Nature. When I feel it needs me to stop, I stop. I know my limits and my restrictions and have been following the rules.

ignorance is the ultimate evil, and the world we live in now, is the result, it's sad that there are magicians that still perpetuate the cliche ideals of good and evil that so many other practicioners have struggled to dispel, desiring to be seen as a force of benelovence, rather than a source of maleovance, as the bible religions have designated them to be...

I completely agree.

Edit: Took out quote

I agree with both of you to a point. First off I do not beleive in evolution and never will. Science and Magick have no place being mentioned together. Also if you truely beleive in Nature Magick then you should know that this is a world that exsists on the presence of good and evil. There will always be good and evil in this world no matter what. My grandfather was an apache medicine man and worshiped nature and the spirit world all of his life and taught me alot of what I know. We all make are own choices and worship what or who we want. I am not saying the way you worship or the art you practice is wrong. A mage and a witch and how they draw there powers is different yet kinda the same. BY you saying Phantom x is wrong, in my mind it seems you are saying you are better because the way you worship is pure. I may be wrong and if so please explain this better.

I think that Evolution definitely exists in this world.  I think that Magick and Religion are other forms of science, but have explained more and explain it in different ways.

[jordyn]

I agree with both of you to a point. First off I do not beleive in evolution and never will. Science and Magick have no place being mentioned together. Also if you truely beleive in Nature Magick then you should know that this is a world that exsists on the presence of good and evil. There will always be good and evil in this world no matter what. My grandfather was an apache medicine man and worshiped nature and the spirit world all of his life and taught me alot of what I know. We all make are own choices and worship what or who we want. I am not saying the way you worship or the art you practice is wrong. A mage and a witch and how they draw there powers is different yet kinda the same. BY you saying Phantom x is wrong, in my mind it seems you are saying you are better because the way you worship is pure. I may be wrong and if so please explain this better.

today's science is yesterday's magick...

so, what about nature is good, what about nature is evil, excluding humanity of course?

it does come down to opinion, and mine is that; good and evil is derived from humanity, sure, we may be able to attune with naturally occuring energies, some will be friendly towards us, others will not, some will have an amazing realization of consciousness, other's will be little more than a breeze...

but it's humanity that makes them devils, angels and any other title starting out with the prehistoric sorcerer and venus's of waldorf type of worship, giving them personality, a stance, in that manner, i do believe we make gods and their sort out of personal desires, in response to these energies...

unless you can prove there is an aspect of the natural world that's evil, any example of good nature.

personally, i don't worship nature, i worship nothing, really...

but magick as a natural talent that humanity can possess, should also extend to consideration of humanity...man and nature should be in balance...but most are too, simple to concern themselves with balance, with little concern to find harmony with this world and either become full blown green nazi's or disregard nature, to the point of destroying her...so absolute in "their right to do so"

i don't give nature a personality...but nature does have the ability to respond to what we do to her....sort of like bothering a sow bear, she's not grumpy and mean, just responding to a threat to her cub, but that's not an emotion...but instinct.

an egotisitical, self worshiping approach to magick, will destroy a person, as easily as dancing with a devil can...there's no wisdom in believing one is better, there's always someone else to learn more from, but how can one learn, expound and grow believing they have it all, mastered?

First of all, I have a right to control where my life goes and not God nor anyone else can tell me where to go. I have the right to be here. Period.

Second, I do not force my will onto others. I have been given a gift to shape the world to how I believe. If its wrong, it shouldnt exist.

so what gives you the right to tell others where to go...what can and can not exist, simply because you wish it...how do you decide what's wrong, do you even care what after effects your selfishness may cause?

just the other day some person was talking about magickally destroying a business, it fired him, apparantly he's been having a hard time getting back on his feet...sure, he may have the ability to shut the company down, but he failed to realize that others would lose their job, some supporting families...what would have given him the right to ruin the lives of others just because he was scorned?

at this point, the science of cause and effect, shoud be considered...magick without that, is just an unchecked id.

[jordyn]

I think that Evolution definitely exists in this world.  I think that Magick and Religion are other forms of science, but have explained more and explain it in different ways.

i'd say religion is more of a philosophy, but can agree with the rest. 

but scientists are doing amazing things with science and how we have a need for religion, of some sort...

[Phantom X]

I also believe in Fate. If I am supposed to to do it, I will do it. Everything happenes for a reason.

I think that Evolution definitely exists in this world. I think that Magick and Religion are other forms of science, but have explained more and explain it in different ways.

i'd say religion is more of a philosophy, but can agree with the rest.

but scientists are doing amazing things with science and how we have a need for religion, of some sort...

I agree, religion is often philosophy, but philosophy is a science.  They both explain the world, and are basically different ways of doing that.

[The_Seeker]

Sorry, science comes from philosophy.  A fair deal of the earliest western (Greek especially) philosophy was Natural Philosophy, or the studying of nature.  This lead to many things like analyzing the elements, the very word "atom", and other such concepts that would pave the way for science.  Therefore science is a philosophy, not the other way around.

[jordyn]

I also believe in Fate. If I am supposed to to do it, I will do it. Everything happenes for a reason.

now, that's good!

[Phantom X]

I also believe in Fate. If I am supposed to to do it, I will do it. Everything happenes for a reason.

now, that's good!

Then if you agree with that, then you see what I do isnt evil. Its ment to be.

[jordyn]

I also believe in Fate. If I am supposed to to do it, I will do it. Everything happenes for a reason.

now, that's good!

Then if you agree with that, then you see what I do isnt evil. Its ment to be.

if you are influencing things, than how do you know it's meant to be and not you influencing thing...the world is meant to be your playground, you are meant to attempt to manipulate the weather, needing a higher force to let you know you're not supposed to be messing with that, creating the world to suit you, regardless of others is meant to be?

seeking to control that which you have no rights to control, is a form of evil...magick without personal responsibility, doing as you wish and leaving it to "fate" to correct any negative results that may have happened to others, by becoming to emeshed in your..."I have the right to say I am better"

does being prettier and smarter than others make me better, or just vain and judgemental?

i can admit my "evil" tendencies...

[Phantom X]

I also believe in Fate. If I am supposed to to do it, I will do it. Everything happenes for a reason.

now, that's good!

Then if you agree with that, then you see what I do isnt evil. Its ment to be.

if you are influencing things, than how do you know it's meant to be and not you influencing thing...the world is meant to be your playground, you are meant to attempt to manipulate the weather, needing a higher force to let you know you're not supposed to be messing with that, creating the world to suit you, regardless of others is meant to be?

seeking to control that which you have no rights to control, is a form of evil...magick without personal responsibility, doing as you wish and leaving it to "fate" to correct any negative results that may have happened to others, by becoming to emeshed in your..."I have the right to say I am better"

does being prettier and smarter than others make me better, or just vain and judgemental?

i can admit my "evil" tendencies...

To believe in Fate is to believe that you do things for a purpose and things done to your are for a purpose. I dont leave it to Fate to stop or correct the negatives. There have been negatives and I have delt with the conciquences and rose above them. I dont need a higher power to tell me not to do things, I use it as a guideline to draw the line between needs and wants. If we were in a dry spell and I  created a rain cloud, knowing very well that Nature is angery, I still continue. Punishment may come later or may not. Whose to say that Nature is wrong and I am right? Who watches the watchmen?

Also, the world is based one who is better and who isnt. Betterness is fear and fear is an advantage. (Though, it could also be betterness is determination and determination is power. Power grows into betterness and betterness turns into fear.)

[Zak Roy Yoballa]

Jordyn,

I am shocked that you would call anyone evil.  If I remember correctly, you have asked in other posts (not that it is a bad question) "what is evil?".   By what standard are you judging by?   Who or what, in your world view has the power to say something is good or evil?  This isn't meant to be accusatory, simply pointing out that I'm not sure what standard you are using.

As a Christian, I use the Word of God, as the standard.  By His standard, anyone who uses magic is doing evil. 

Here's where it gets interesting.  I love your comment about yesterday's magic is today's science, and I agree to a point.  But that statement makes me realize why the Amish are the way they are!

ZRY

[jordyn]

Jordyn,

I am shocked that you would call anyone evil.  If I remember correctly, you have asked in other posts (not that it is a bad question) "what is evil?".   By what standard are you judging by?   Who or what, in your world view has the power to say something is good or evil?  This isn't meant to be accusatory, simply pointing out that I'm not sure what standard you are using.

As a Christian, I use the Word of God, as the standard.  By His standard, anyone who uses magic is doing evil. 

Here's where it gets interesting.  I love your comment about yesterday's magic is today's science, and I agree to a point.  But that statement makes me realize why the Amish are the way they are!

ZRY

that's why i keep "evil" in quotes...

i'm using the ovewhelming belief that by violating the free will of another person...whether it be physically, mentally or spiritually and destroying their basic right to live life...as society's standards of evil,

i believe it was already agreed, by most that evil is designated by society...what then does society deem as evil versus the bible, which is the "word of god"?

using magick to do as one wishes, completely disregarding anything they deem as unimportant, by standard definition is evil...

personally i view it as an immature misunderstanding and abuse of naturally given powers, and hopefully it will mature and become a path to spiritual growth and unity with the universe...having no need to brag one is better, but to demonstrate they are a better human...being human shouldn't be about being better than another, but realizing we're all on a sinking ship, unless something changes.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=evil

murder, rape, incest, and some even go so far as using terms like homosexuality and permiscuous sex as evil, leading to the downfall of man and ultimately the destruction of another great culture that's become so emersed in the theories of right and wrong, good and evil, that they fail to preserve that which makes it all possible...the human condition.

i do not have to succumb to a belief that does not directly affect me to discuss that belief...i'm not calling anyone evil, but certain behaviors being demonstrated are inherently evil, based on general definitions, with heavy influence from an outdated patriarchial society that supported many atrocities against their own pereptions of evil.

i guess man as a whole, hasn't learned any lessons, yet; it seems we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

p.s. i rather admire the amish for having the tenacity to stay true to their beliefs, living life as they preach...especially in a world of such tempting illumination, flush with hypocrisy...too few embrace that option.